Am I turning into a fish?

[byronkincaid]

So I used to be a rock and i used to do OK grinding out enough money to pay the bills playing sngs and doing alright in the odd multi, winning a few sats to live tourney's etc. But I got a bit bored with that so I started playing 6pak sngs and the occasional 6 max cash game both limit and NL. I'm trying to improve my game, I'm trying to loosen up, I'm trying to accumilate chips, I'm trying to take down pots without having the best hand, I'm trying to become a poker player not just some boring rock who just plays big hands. I have been doing a lot worse money wise the last couple of months. I think maybe I have just turned into a fish.

Last night I'm playing a sat to a live event. 97 players 1000 starting chips top 3 get a seat. After the first hour I'm chip leader with 6000 and 58 players left.

Blinds 50/100, I'm BB and the SB completes he has 400 left. I push with K9 he calls with  A K and I lose.

I'm in the CO and have Ah , I raise to 300, the button calls, BB goes all in. It's another 1000 for me to call so I do. Button folds and BB has K K. i lose.

Blinds 75/150, I'm in MP and raise to 450 with 88. Button goes all in and the blinds fold. It's 1800 to call. I use up almost all my time deciding that if he had a high pair he would have raised less, I put him on A K or A Q so I call. He has J 10. I lose

I have 1700 left and chuck it all in with A 9 in MP. I am called by 10 10 and I have gone from CL to out the tourney in about 10 minutes.

Fish?

[jezza777]

I think that the k9 push was fair enough given your stack and the limited liability in the hand.
the AQ hand is a bit tough he may put you on a steal and be pushing with a weaker ace or less so i think your call is ok here just unlucky to run into a hand.
The 88 is a fold i think your either a 4-1 dog or 50/50 at best. There are better opportunities, his raise is just too much to call.
The all in with a9 is abit premature in my opinion you have a little more time to get a better hand or situation.


Not particularly fishy m8 so I wouldnt worry a conspiring set of circumstances tho I think maybee a little bit of tilt may have come into your later decisions.

I have recently being trying to change my style and getting involved in pots with dubious holdings and i have to say it isn't working for me . I used to play my cards and position and i would do ok but , niow i am finding the game harder because of the amount of flop decisions i have to make when i semi hit my hand.  I feel that somehow I am not progressing or am not a good player because most of the time i wait for cards and they kind of played themselves . This makes me feel like i have no talent for the game and so i go into pots with crap and hope to come up smelling of roses! just to prove to myself that i can win a pot with anything. Madness.

Hopefully its just another step in my evolution and i will become able to spot opportunities to go into pots knowing i am behind with dubious holdings for the right reasons.

[byronkincaid]

I have recently being trying to change my style and getting involved in pots with dubious holdings and i have to say it isn't working for me . I used to play my cards and position and i would do ok but , niow i am finding the game harder because of the amount of flop decisions i have to make when i semi hit my hand.  I feel that somehow I am not progressing or am not a good player because most of the time i wait for cards and they kind of played themselves . This makes me feel like i have no talent for the game and so i go into pots with crap and hope to come up smelling of roses! just to prove to myself that i can win a pot with anything. Madness.

You put it a lot better than I did. I wonder if this is something that a lot of people go through. Anyone know the answer?

[AdamM]

you can't force yourself to be a loose player if it's not your natural style. loose isn't necessarily better than tight. as long as you have the ability to shift gears they're just different perspectives on the same problem. some approach the game from the angle that if they win lots of small pots early doors they can take bigger risks later because of the cushion they've built up. It's ok to do it from the other perspective and wait patiently for a spot to win a big pot. People act like being a tight play is in someway less skillful, or even less manly than being a maniac. The only maniacs I respect are those that can spot when they're being trapped by a tighter player and stop betting before they pay him off. Those that're just splashing around are idiots.
 I say play however feels natural.

[thetank]

The K9, fine.

The AQs calling 1000 re-raise, I think is justified. You've chips to spare and there ain't no real prizes for 4th place in the satellite. It's because of the latter reason that the guy who moved over the top may very well have held a variety of hands that you were dominating. Sometimes if they move in mega quick you can get away from it.

Where I would have differed is in playing the 8's. I'm laying them down to the re-raise( even though it's a satellite ) I can forget about the 450 and still have a nice sized stack. A stack that can allow me to pick my spots and not be forced to go all-in with medium aces in a few hands time.

You say you "put him" on AK or AQ. All he has done here is gone over the top with his stack of just over 2000. In an online tournament I fail to see how you could put him on anything here with any degree of confidence large enough to influence your descicion.
Most players at this stage might make that move with big pairs, big suited connectors, big slick etc. The truth of it is that you don't really know which one it is and any read that you attempt to make will perhaps just be you trying to in some way justify calling as you have the itch to gamble. (calling with 8's here is gambling imho)
This might not be the case, (and I certainly don't mean any offence) all I know is that it was, with me, a mistake I'd make all the time. Looking for an excuse to call which I could justify to myself that wasn't really there.
Some would argue that calling is ok and they may have a point, if anything, it's a borderline play. What would the rock have done?

[jezza777]

I have to agree with you adam playing like a maniac goes against the grain for me but i can change gear when needed and think my natural game is pretty decent. I do think that to win tournaments tho especially MTT's you need to build chips so you can afford to lose a few 50-50's later on and not do too much damage. Unfortunatley premium cards do not come along often enough( and hold up) in my experiance to make this possible. SO began my maniac chip building exercise and i just dont do ot well enough . Back to rocksville for me i think.

[AdamM]

as a tight player I find the most important thing is knowing when you've run out of time waiting for your big spot to come. if you go too far when it does come the maniacs will be queueing up to take you on and try to out draw you. you need your double through to bite hard when it comes.

[jezza777]

Very true adam , also one of the benefits of playing tight is that people will respect your raises which is helpful when nicking the blinds or pushing limpers out with position . This is no good tho if your stack size isn large enough. When do you think the crunch time comes ? I use the 10xbb threshold if i drop under it i am looking for an opportunity and willl begin to expand my requirements.

[AdamM]

10xBB is one obvios trigger. I also try and keep track of where my stack is in relation to other key players at the table. what damage would an all in coup do against the tables biggest maniac, any weak tight players, any calling stations, etc. also is there a maniac v maniac war on I can sneak into with a monster. I want to come into a raised pot barely noticed when the loose aggressive players are posturing at each other. I love those "oh, he's in too is he?" moments  on the turn or river when you've re-raised all in.

[byronkincaid]

you can't force yourself to be a loose player if it's not your natural style

I wonder where my natural style came from though. It must be from stuff i've learnt in the past therefore why can't I learn some more stuff and improve my game? There used to be a good essay by ray zee on 2+2 which went through the development of an expert player, I wish I had copied it but from what I remember it said most people start off as a fish then realise you can make money by playing tight then go through a loose phase when you realise you can outplay people with any two cards then take the best of both tight and loose styles to become a very good player. I'm not saying I'm anywhere near being an expert player if fact (if what he's written is true) then perhaps I'm still in my tight phase and trying to force the loose phase before I'm ready for it or something.

Did any of the "at it" style players start off playing tight and then changed to a looser style or have they always had maniac tendencies?

[byronkincaid]

You say you "put him" on AK or AQ. All he has done here is gone over the top with his stack of just over 2000. In an online tournament I fail to see how you could put him on anything here with any degree of confidence large enough to influence your descicion.
Most players at this stage might make that move with big pairs, big suited connectors, big slick etc. The truth of it is that you don't really know which one it is and any read that you attempt to make will perhaps just be you trying to in some way justify calling as you have the itch to gamble. (calling with 8's here is gambling imho)
This might not be the case, (and I certainly don't mean any offence) all I know is that it was, with me, a mistake I'd make all the time. Looking for an excuse to call which I could justify to myself that wasn't really there.
Some would argue that calling is ok and they may have a point, if anything, it's a borderline play. What would the rock have done?

You are of course correct when I say I put him on something it is just a guess, he could have had anything J 10 was a surprise. I suppose I tried to put him on a range of hands, I thought AA and KK were unlikely as most people would try to get some more chips out of me not try to frighten me out of the pot. 99-QQ are all possiblilities but what seemed most likely to me was something like A K where he's happy to risk all his chips with but is also happy if I just fold.

The rock would have folded due to the possibility off him having an overpair. If I knew 100% that he had A K I would have definitely called. I think you have to win some coin flips to win a tournement so why not flip them now rather than later. This may be silly thinking though?

[doubleup]

So I used to be a rock and i used to do OK grinding out enough money to pay the bills playing sngs and doing alright in the odd multi, winning a few sats to live tourney's etc. But I got a bit bored with that so I started playing 6pak sngs and the occasional 6 max cash game both limit and NL. I'm trying to improve my game, I'm trying to loosen up, I'm trying to accumilate chips, I'm trying to take down pots without having the best hand, I'm trying to become a poker player not just some boring rock who just plays big hands. I have been doing a lot worse money wise the last couple of months. I think maybe I have just turned into a fish.

Last night I'm playing a sat to a live event. 97 players 1000 starting chips top 3 get a seat. After the first hour I'm chip leader with 6000 and 58 players left.

Blinds 50/100, I'm BB and the SB completes he has 400 left. I push with K9 he calls with  A K and I lose.

I'm in the CO and have Ah , I raise to 300, the button calls, BB goes all in. It's another 1000 for me to call so I do. Button folds and BB has K K. i lose.

Blinds 75/150, I'm in MP and raise to 450 with 88. Button goes all in and the blinds fold. It's 1800 to call. I use up almost all my time deciding that if he had a high pair he would have raised less, I put him on A K or A Q so I call. He has J 10. I lose

I have 1700 left and chuck it all in with A 9 in MP. I am called by 10 10 and I have gone from CL to out the tourney in about 10 minutes.

Fish?

None of these were very big mistakes due to pot size, apart for the A9 hand.  You were at the stage of the tourney where ppl go in with non-premium hands and you got unlucky.  I think a preoccupation with avoiding mistakes is the worst tendancy that a player can develop in a tourney.  My game improved no end when I stopped waiting for perfect situations in the late middle of tourneys.  Rising blinds are too much of an enemy.

[12barblues]

I sympathise...I'm having similar problems.....and I think Ray Zee has it spot on.

Adding strings to your bow isn't easy and doesn't happen overnight unless you have a real gift for the game. The rest of us have to move slowly and painfully up the learning curve. Speaking for myself only, knowledge is gained from mistakes that cost/ hurt, not when you get away with some appalling howler.

In this particular case, the first two hands were perfectly reasonable IMHO, but then a touch of tilt creeps in. The 88 hand is marginal and the last hand smacks of sheer frustration.....f***  it, the fish win with hands like these......*bang*...... the remaining chips are in the pot.

I've played exactly like this more times than I would care to admit, and come away thinking 'unlucky to lose every single one of those all-in's'. But the truth is that aggression has to be selectively applied, not just used like a lump hammer. If you find the secret to switching gears seamlessly, let me know! But don't tell the others...........

12bb

P.S. From my limited experience of playing against you, you are considerably further along the learning curve than I am and my comments should be taken with this caveat.

[byronkincaid]

Thanks for the comments, the A9 hand was indeed horrible. I think Adam has touched on a good point in that I should be observing the other players styles and trying to read their hands, this is important however you play the game and is something that I am particularly bad at.

[ifm]

turning?