SnG Had - Got Grief, did I deserve it?

[Tuffster]

About 30 mins into a SnG Hero 5,400 chips (Chip Leader), Villiian 3,600 chips (3rd place). 6 handed, 3 paid (50/30/20).

Villiain has been quite rockish, playing roughly ABC, showed down one hand AK suited and won with the nut flush.

Blinds 100/200. Villain UTG raises to 600, I'm next to act with  . I'm putting her on AA/AKs but decide to gamble as I've also go position so flat call. All else fold. Pot 1,500

Flop comes;   

Villain bets 400, I read this as AKs as with AA I believe she'd bet the pot given the straightening and flushing board so on the belief that I'm ahead, re-pop to 1,400, Villain calls. Pot 4,300.

Turn comes; 

I now know I'm behind but Villain checks, so happily take a free card myself.

River comes; 

Only behind to a 5, 9/10 or a better set. Can't put her on any of these, so call her all-in (1,600) river bet.

Villain turns over  and then I get a shed load of grief for calling pre-flop and betting on the flop.

Was the flat call pre-flop for 9% of my stack a mistake given my read on her? UTG raise from a solid player, AA is very possible so could be very far behind. Was the gamble ill-advised and what do you guys think of the re-pop on the flop?

Cheers

[bolt pp]

what do you care what he/she says(are you assuming its a woman because of their handle because ive seen some stats that say a decent portion of female names online belong to male players and furthermore a lot of female players are reluctant to let their sex be known so dont often have a female name) you've got their chips and theyre gone, end of.

did you deserve it, probably not but i dont know you, you might be a terrible person that kills kittens.

Did you deserve it from how you played the hand, probably not but it wasn't great, i fold pre flop here and you avoid getting into uncomfortable situations on the flop with a 4000 odd pot against the type of player who clearly doesnt know what they're doing and has such a big range imo, especially at this stage of a stt.

If i do take the raise pre it's pretty much an auto fold  for me on this type of board(pretty much any board with out a 4) but the couple of mistakes you made(calling pre & building a big pot on an ugly board at the mid stage of the tourney when you should be waiting still for big cards, two players to get knocked out or the blinds to go up, whichever comes first so you can start shoving the shit out of your stack baby) really pale into insignificance in light of how badly your oppo mangles the hand!

[TheChipPrince]

You can put someone on AA because they raise it up 6 handed?!

[Longy]

Fold preflop you don't have odds to purely set mine and if not you really are playing a guessing game whether this is ak/aq or a bigger pair on all boards that you don't hit a set.

On the flop i would just flat the bet, the raise should get all better hands to fold and all worse hands to shove/call. Obv this wasn't the case here but against any opponent with half a brain thats the case.

Check turn and felting the river are standard.

As for the abuse just ignore it ,the ridic misinformed stuff people say to you, really is comical. In fact on party my main site my ahk script closes the chatbox so I can't see it, much better imo.

[LeKnave]

UTG raises to 600, I'm next to act with  . I'm putting her on AA/AKs

Villain bets 400, I read this as AKs as with AA

Villain turns over 

superuser account imo

You can put someone on AA because they raise it up 6 handed?!

clear superuser.

[Tuffster]

I made an educated guess to put her on a high-pair or AKs as she'd been very tight leading up to that point, with about 3 orbits gone she hadn't got involved in a pot in early position at all.

I'm certainly no where near to being a Negreanu in terms of reading people, but from what I'd seen of this player, there was no way she was going to raise with anything else UTG.

Longy / Bolt thanks for the advice and analysis here, muchly appreciated.

[Grier78]

At the end of the day you had the best hand on all three occasions when the money went in, and no money went in when you were behind.

I would have folded pre-flop though as there is no need to get involved at this point with that hand and there is the rest of the table to act behind you.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: Longy

Fold preflop you don't have odds to purely set mine and if not you really are playing a guessing game whether this is ak/aq or a bigger pair on all boards that you don't hit a set.

Yes, I agree with that. Your mistake is pre-flop imo. I think calling pre-flop because you have the advantage of position should be replaced with raising because you have the advantage of big chips. Like Grier said though, you never put your money in behind so how can you be criticised? Your ranting oppo made more mistakes than you did. Do you deserve grief from an oppo who played worse than you? Like Longy, I find it comical because your oppo isn't considering his mistakes, he's only concerned with his illusion of yours.

Posted by: Longy

In fact on party my main site my ahk script closes the chatbox so I can't see it, much better imo.

Have to lol at that though ref: the shades debate. What is it with poker players refusing to listen to how their opponents think?

[Longy]

Posted by: Longy

In fact on party my main site my ahk script closes the chatbox so I can't see it, much better imo.

Have to lol at that though ref: the shades debate. What is it with poker players refusing to listen to how their opponents think?

I purely play speed sngs on party which are about as mathematical form of poker you can get. Reads you can get from the chatbox really are minimal and you might get half of one about every 100 sngs imo. This is far less important to me than being tempted to read what some idiot is saying when i have decision to be made on my other tables.

I don't wear shades or use an ipod when playing live fwiw.

[thetank]

Have to lol at that though ref: the shades debate. What is it with poker players refusing to listen to how their opponents think?

I've heard the argument that the chatbox should remain because, after being subject to your expert interpretation, information is always useful, and can be used to maximize your chances of winning.


Consider for a moment, the game of chicken.

Two drivers at opposite ends of a stretch of road point their respective vehicles at each other and proceed as fast as they can in a straight line collision course. The driver that does not swerve out of the way is the winner.

A strong tactic is to dismantle your steering wheel, and throw it out of the window so that the other driver can see.*

There is now no possibilty of you changing your course. Your opponent has no choice but to swerve their vehicle and lose the game, or continue and kill you both in a great ball of fire (which is technically a draw, but a somewhat pyrrhic one I'm sure you'll agree)

Will the unbeaten chicken champ try this tactic when he sees his opponent enter the vehicle by means of a cane and a dog?


Is it true that information is always useful?

If you enjoy the chat box in your STTs, by all means use it.
Personally, I'd rather close the box and open another table instead. Keeping up with all the posturing is a big waste of concentration.


*A quick nod to the book "Bobby Fisher goes to War" for the steering wheel out the window thing.

[thetank]

Re. the original post.....

You posted because you want confirmation that you were playing correctly and it was your opponent who played the hand wrong. They suggested the opposite in the chat box and you are looking for somebody to agree with you.

I will do that, I will say that your play was 100 times better than theirs, because I believe it to be true.

Over the world there are thousands of people who think they know what they are doing at a sit n go table, and they will be more than happy to give out free lessons in the chat box. If they lost the hand, chances are they will think you played it wrong.

However.....

They may be wrong, you may be right, but probably best to ignore this completely and concentrate your energies on becoming even better. Who cares if you get grief, that should be your attitude. The more you play, the better you get, the more you win, the more grief will inevitably come your way. The only player at the table who needs to know that you are any good is yourself.




To that end, and given all the benefits of hindsight, looking at the hand in the clear light of day; the critical issue in your play was the flop raise; you have misread your opponent.

Wait you say, I haven't misread my opponent, I thought they held AKs or AA, and that's exactly what they had. Surely my read was as near spot on as you can get? I used the correctly deduced information to make a good, aggressive raise. Why don't I have every reason to feel good about myself?

The player in question might have had the hand you thought they did, but they didn't play it how you assumed they would.
They called the flop raise with AK high, which in reality, totally commits their entire stack to the pot. A horrible play.

If this is the sort of player they are, you should not have been trying to push them off the hand with a weak holding.
(It would have been an extremely powerful play against a half decent player.)


After they call on the flop, from that point on, you can only win the hand in three ways.

1. You hit a miracle 4 (unlikely)

2. You check down to a showdown and win.
(The combined possibility that they don't stick in the rest of their stack on either of the remaining two streets and that they also don't improve their hand is even more unlikley than hitting a 4 imo.)

3. You commiting a further 1,600 chips to the pot and 44 holding up (an amount that makes the difference between you keeping a comfortable money-ing stack or having a stack that will still have to fight to cash)
This would be poor play IMO as you are v weak and your opponent has shown considerable strength. Throwing good chips after bad.
Yes you have the better hand, but you don't really have any way of knowing that. (I think the hand range you have put them on is far too narrow to be realistic, but other posters have mentioned that and it is besides my point so I will not press that issue.)


Keep posting on blondes PHA and you won't go far wrong. It's a far better place to debate a hands merit than the chat box.

 

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: thetank

Will the unbeaten chicken champ try this tactic when he sees his opponent enter the vehicle by means of a cane and a dog?


Is it true that information is always useful?

If my oppo in a game of chicken was blind I would prefer to be supplied with that information yes.

[thetank]

What if he is just pretending to be blind?

You may have lost the game because of this information.

Or maybe you shrewdly assertain that he is pretending, but he doesn't know that you know he is pretending, and confidently guides his car's bumper onto yours in a cataclysmic collison.

In this instance, who has benefitted from the exchange of information?

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: thetank

What if he is just pretending to be blind?

You may have lost the game because of this information.

What if he is blind?

You have lost your life because you didn't have this info.

[thetank]

What if he is blind?

You have lost your life because you didn't have this info.

If you are that concerned for your well being, probably best not to play chicken in the first place?