Cash game ruling advice

[david3103]

We play a 5p/10p cash game that regularly produces pots of £5 upwards. Most pots are raised pre and a lot of hands are folded on the river in the face of massive overbets.
Last night however, the big river bet was called. The caller showed his two pair (the top two) and the raiser mucked his hand.

Can the raiser be compelled to show?

Does it make a difference who asks?

I said that if he gets called then he has to show.  I wasn't active in the hand at the end but I had put chips in the pot.

Roberts' Rules say "Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked."

did I just answer my own question?

[Karabiner]

Why did the caller show his hand first ?

When a bet is called, the player who made the last raise should be the one to show his hand as the caller has called to "see" his hand.

As for players not involved at the river asking to see a hand, this is a matter of etiquette, and is considered by many to be "bad form", although imho the called raiser should automatically table his hand.

[gatso]

Why did the caller show his hand first ?

When a bet is called, the player who made the last raise should be the one to show his hand as the caller has called to "see" his hand.

As for players not involved at the river asking to see a hand, this is a matter of etiquette, and is considered by many to be "bad form", although imho the called raiser should automatically table his hand.

I agree with all of that.

also bear in mind that if the raisers cards have actually been put in the muck rather than being considered mucked by virtue of being pushed forward or a verbal declaration then no-one should be touching them. Going through the muck = v.v. bad form

[kinboshi]

I've been the caller, and I've known I had the best hand.  Unless I need to see the other player's cards for information, I will table my cards and then the other player can muck his losing hand.  Sometimes this spares his blushes and encourages him to reload so I can try and take more from him.  Forcing him to show (which is my right) could be seen as a bit of a rub down if I pretty much know what he has and I know I have him crushed.

I can demand he turns his over first, but I think the ruling (in many places anyway), is that if the caller shows his hand, the other player can now muck.  But I might be wrong...

[david3103]

Thanks all

Why did the caller show his hand first ?

He called very slowly and with the immortal words... "I think I'm beaten, but I have two pair.." at which point the raiser pushed his cards away saying "good call"

When a bet is called, the player who made the last raise should be the one to show his hand as the caller has called to "see" his hand.

As for players not involved at the river asking to see a hand, this is a matter of etiquette, and is considered by many to be "bad form", although imho the called raiser should automatically table his hand.

I don't generally like to do 'bad form' stuff, but I think this was worth making an exception. The cards weren't in the muck, they were clearly distinct on his side of the pot, whilst the muck was the other side of a mountain of chips.

I take kinboshi's point about not rubbing his face in it, but the betting on this hand was strong all through and I wanted to know what he had been betting with and would have forgotten the issue had he not told me in no uncertain terms that it was nothing to do with me because I had folded.

I'll make peace for the argument when I see him next, but also make the point that it is up to him to show when he has been called.  This is a small, generally friendly, game; played within everyone's financial comfort zone but 'rules is rules'

[Tractor]

Thanks all

Why did the caller show his hand first ?

He called very slowly and with the immortal words... "I think I'm beaten, but I have two pair.." at which point the raiser pushed his cards away saying "good call"

When a bet is called, the player who made the last raise should be the one to show his hand as the caller has called to "see" his hand.

As for players not involved at the river asking to see a hand, this is a matter of etiquette, and is considered by many to be "bad form", although imho the called raiser should automatically table his hand.

I don't generally like to do 'bad form' stuff, but I think this was worth making an exception. The cards weren't in the muck, they were clearly distinct on his side of the pot, whilst the muck was the other side of a mountain of chips.

I take kinboshi's point about not rubbing his face in it, but the betting on this hand was strong all through and I wanted to know what he had been betting with and would have forgotten the issue had he not told me in no uncertain terms that it was nothing to do with me because I had folded.

I'll make peace for the argument when I see him next, but also make the point that it is up to him to show when he has been called.  This is a small, generally friendly, game; played within everyone's financial comfort zone but 'rules is rules'

Always be carefull if you muck when someone says they have two pair,staright etc, as once youve mucked your cards are dead he may have misread his hand and not have what he declared.
This happens quite a lot in our local game!