Need Sanity...RULING PLEASE & TY.......

[Laxie]

SB 5,000
BB 10,000

Folds around to mid position who says '30k' and tosses in what appears to be the last of his chips . 

Folds around to SB who thinks for ages and finally says 'call'.  BB folds.  SB turns cards their cards up. 

Someone (not in the hand) tells mid position 'Right, turn yer cards on their backs.'  so mid turns them over. 

Next thing we know, flop hasn't been done yet and someone else says, 'Hold on a minute, he's not all in.'  referring to mid position guy.  He'd covered his last 30k and SB assumed (wrongly) he was all in, but now both hands were on their backs. 

Owner of the pub said the SB's hand was dead

Another stepped in and said it wasn't dead when mid position had turned them over as well.

Suggestions made were to play it out with no more betting, split pot without seeing a flop at all or call SB's hand dead and mid takes it all. 

Put us out of our misery.  What's the ruling?     

[TightEnd]

I don't know if MP is shooting an angle or not.

However its the SB's mistake not to know whether its all in or not.

Once the cards are exposed I think the community cards play out as normal with no further betting.

[gatso]

firstly if we're using TDA rules then no-ones hand should be dead here.
TDA rule 31.

Exposing Cards A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty,
but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the
hand.

if MP is clearly hiding chips intentionally then we could declare them AI and remove the hidden chips from play under rule 23

Chips Visible All chips must be visible at all times. Players may not hold or transport
tournament chips in any manner that takes them out of view. A player
who does so will forfeit the chips and will face disqualification. The
forfeited chips will be taken out of play.

but we'd need to be 100% sure and that would be a very harsh ruling.

imo this is SBs mistake and one that people make all the time. if there's been no AI declaration then you should always check.

hand should continue but I'm unsure as to whether there should be betting or not

[The_duke]

Need sanity -- sorry, lost cause I'm afraid 

[Rookie (Rodney)]

I don't know if MP is shooting an angle or not.

However its the SB's mistake not to know whether its all in or not.

Once the cards are exposed I think the community cards play out as normal with no further betting.

[The_duke]

ummm who was the SB -- huh - huh -- tell us pleeese

[Laxie]

Sigh.  Idiot here was SB and made the initial mistake...tyvm.   

I thought he'd pushed all in because he didn't have that many chips to begin with.  After the BB folded I turned my cards over and one of the spectators told mid position guy to turn his over as well.  Mid did what he was told and that's when it was discovered he had more chips behind. 

Owner of the pub reckoned my hand should be dead as I was first to turn cards up, but the crowd got stuck in and said he was wrong as both hands were up and a flop hadn't been done.  I stayed out of the debate at the time because I was so cross with meself for making the mistake in the first place.  At the end of the night I got a bit of grief from the owner over it and was asked to post here for more opinions.  If this keeps up, I'm going to make him buy a laptop to keep in the pub FFS.

PS  I went on to win the tourney            

[owen1923]

There have been a number of instances such as this lately, must be something in the air.

Under no circumstances should a hand be killed because it has been exposed, the hand should be played out without further betting and let the cards speak for themselves.

its normally the situation that one player has exposed his hand, same thing again the hand is played out, with the player who had exposed his hand being unable to make any further bets in the hand, but he may call should his oppo bet.

I think that people are sometimes a little to keen to kill hands as a result of an error, and these people should really bear in mind that in this game at the end of the day that the cards speak for themselves.

[boldie]

There have been a number of instances such as this lately, must be something in the air.

yes..people not paying attention. How difficult is it? DO NOT TURN YOUR HAND OVER UNTIL THE DEALER TELLS YOU TO!

Really. The hand shouldn't be declared dead but the punishment at the end of thye hand should be severe.....in Laxie's case she would not be served in that pub for 3 months.

[gatso]

There have been a number of instances such as this lately, must be something in the air.

yes..people not paying attention. How difficult is it? DO NOT TURN YOUR HAND OVER UNTIL THE DEALER TELLS YOU TO!

Really. The hand shouldn't be declared dead but the punishment at the end of thye hand should be severe.....in Laxie's case she would not be served in that pub for 3 months.

I can see your trip to see Castro's left an impression

[boldie]

There have been a number of instances such as this lately, must be something in the air.

yes..people not paying attention. How difficult is it? DO NOT TURN YOUR HAND OVER UNTIL THE DEALER TELLS YOU TO!

Really. The hand shouldn't be declared dead but the punishment at the end of thye hand should be severe.....in Laxie's case she would not be served in that pub for 3 months.

I can see your trip to see Castro's left an impression

That Castro fella has things pretty much sorted out, I tell ya.

[Laxie]

He'd have to close the place down as my friends and I are likely paying his rent for him.   

Been talking to Timothy about it today and we reckon the owner of the pub just wasn't 'himself' last night.  Something had him in knots and he needed someone to bash.  I was the lucky winner.  Kept me mouth shut during the tourney (shocking but true), but when he started up again after most had left the building, it got a bit ugly because I was done being his punching bag. 

Will be an interesting night back in the same spot tonight.  lol  On my way over to him now with the print out of the thread (minus this post) to test the waters.  If I'm not back in an hour, send a search party.  Cover me...I'm going in!     

[The_duke]

There have been a number of instances such as this lately, must be something in the air.

yes..people not paying attention. How difficult is it? DO NOT TURN YOUR HAND OVER UNTIL THE DEALER TELLS YOU TO!

Really. The hand shouldn't be declared dead but the punishment at the end of thye hand should be severe.....in Laxie's case she would not be served in that pub for 3 months.

He's back five minutes and he is full on -- welcome back Baldy

[Laxie]

I'm back.  Before I was able to utter a word, a pint was up on the bar (on the house) and the hand was extended.  Apparently he did a bit of research of his own today and already knew what I was about to say.  On top of that, he'd a proper think about the way he tore into me last night and gave sincere apologies for the lot.  So all is sorted...until the next time.   

[Ecosse]

Well played Laxie