Pocket QQ with JJ flop

[rex008]

DTD last night. £50+5 freezeout. level 2 (40 mins in or so), blinds 50/100. Table been reasonably cautious up to now with a couple of players who've been calling raises preflop a lot. And I've been pretty dead, down to 3500 from 4000 start.

I'm UTG+1 and get QQ
UTG folds
I raise to 400
fold
villain 1 (tightish so far - limped a couple of hands) call
fold
villain 2 (fair few preflop calls, not much action postflop) calls
button folds, blinds fold

Pot is now 1350. Flop comes JJ8 rainbow. Action to me. What should I be doing here? Betting for information? How much? Checking? Was my preflop raise the right size?

[kinboshi]

I think you should be betting for value as you're most likely ahead here.  With two jacks on the flop it makes it unlikely that one of the other two is holding a jack.

I'm assuming their stack sizes are similar to yours?

[Royal Flush]

What should I be doing here? Betting for information?

Yes

[TheChipPrince]

I like a 1/2 pot size bet of around 650 here, i dont think any more is needed...  Beware the flat call, if i'm raised i'm likely to shove, if he flats I think i crawl into my shell and invest no more in this pot...

[jizzemm]

if i'm raised i'm likely to shove

really ??

[rex008]

They both had me covered, but not by much.

I chucked 1000 in. I thought I was probably ahead, and didn't want to give A or K a chance to hit. In retrospect I realise that it was probably an overbet.

BOTH players called. Turn was K. (can't remember suits, not really relevant).

I check, villain 1 bets 500 (into a 4350 pot). Villain 2 calls.

I fold. I'm thinking I'm well behind at least one of them here, and possibly both, and with maybe 2 outs, even 10:1 odds isn't +EV.

Anybody disagree with the check/fold here?

And for bonus marks, put villains on hands...?

[Bongo]

83o and A8s?

[TheChipPrince]

if i'm raised i'm likely to shove

really ??

I think so, if they raise with a J, well more fool them...

[EvilPie]

DTD on a Thursday night........

No point betting for information because you won't get any. Not on level 4 anyway. Better to check raise if you want real information. Bet for value yes but not for information.

When they both call I'd be thinking ALL IN..........

...until I saw that bloody king!!

Don't know what to do now so I'm out. Sorry 

FWIW I think they're on 9 10 and a pair of either or 10s

[Royal Flush]

No point betting for information because you won't get any.

Surely we should always bet for information unless we have the nuts?

[EvilPie]

No point betting for information because you won't get any.

Surely we should always bet for information unless we have the nuts?

I know what you're saying but at DTD on a Thursday you're still wondering afterwards as we are here. This is purely based on the tournament being played. There are some players there who we could info bet against confidently but a lot of them you just haven't got a clue. 

I think a check then raise is more likely to get your info in this situation. They should hopefully believe that you've got a serious hand following a check raise and they'll jam with the jack or fold with anything else.

In most tournaments following this action I would have to assume that I'm behind. Surely they can't call without a jack or an overpair? Oh yes they can.

Additionally I'm often value betting the flop if I've flopped the nuts. They never put you on a set if you lead out and just think it's a standard C bet steal. They often come straight ott all in with an overpair. It's one of those tournaments where doing the opposite of what you're supposed to seems to work nicely.

[rex008]

I'd normally agree - Thursday £50 at DTD can be seriously loose - I've seen loads of really weak calls in the past. In this case, the table had been quite disciplined - 2 or 3 handed flops were normal, rather than 7 or 9. And a fair few folds post-flop as well. Noone had even been close to going out on the table in the first 40 mins; again, unusual for DTD Thursday.

I quite like the check-raise on the flop idea, but I was still worried about an overcard coming out if it was checked round, and I'm not sure it would have cost me any less anyway. I someone had bet, I would have had to 2.5-3 bet them, which would likely be more than the 1000 it cost me to realise I was almost certainly behind.

As for the hands - I'll let you make some more guesses. One hand was quite expected, the other one really surprised me.

If it helps, the river was a blank. Villain 1 shoved (around 3000 or so), villain 2 called all in (2500 left I think).

[Horneris]

I bet 750 and shove a raise and call a shove on the flop.

I throw up if someone flat calls.

[EvilPie]

I quite like the check-raise on the flop idea, but I was still worried about an overcard coming out if it was checked round, and I'm not sure it would have cost me any less anyway. I someone had bet, I would have had to 2.5-3 bet them, which would likely be more than the 1000 it cost me to realise I was almost certainly behind.

If it checks round and the overcard comes then it's gone wrong but at least you can get away cheaply. There's less than a 1 in 5 chance of that anyway so let's not worry about that too much. There's not much chance of both of them having a jack so one of them should try to nick it giving you the opportunity to raise it. If you get reraised at least you can fold with some certainty that you're behind. You bet and get called by 2 players and suddenly the overcard gives you even more to worry about but it's cost you chips.

It's a really tough one this. Like Horneris says if you get called you throw up. I don't know what you do when you get called twice and then an overcard comes? Just keel over in your seat possibly?

There's often nothing worse than a good starting hand is there 

[rex008]

Yes, I pretty much keeled over. Just regretted spewing so many chips on the flop.

Anyway, to break the suspense... wait for it...

Villain 2 had QJo. J no surprise there, but Q was disappointing, although made my turn fold even more valid.

Villain 1 had KK!
Yes. Indeed. He himself admitted he'd not played it particularly well - slow played into trouble, then magnificently got out of trouble with the turn.

I guess I should be relatively pleased I got away with any chips at all (unlike villain 2). The flop/turn actually did me a favour in the end, but it didn't feel like it at the time!

Thanks for the suggestions/help/advice anyway. It's my debut PHA post (I think).