CHOPPING, please help me understand?? The Rookie

[I KNOW IT]

Well said Rob, Financial circumstances plays a huge part in deal making. People shouldnt be berated for either doing or refusing deals. A lot of people think the prize structure plays a big part, maybe in the big buy in tornys it does, but in the regular £20 re-buys, 80% of the time it will get chopped.

One thing that does annoy me is when a person refuses deals when hes got a good stack but asks when hes low. On principle I will refuse when these people are in the final, whether im low or not.

[tikay]

Emotions seem to run hot on this issue. As in most things, the arguments are either black or white, when in reality, there are shades of grey.

We are all entitled to our own views on chopping, and it DOES depend on your financial position. My biggest gripe with deals is that the "discussion" always seems to get heated. A nice, frirendly, good-spirited table descends into a slanging match the moment the word "deal" is mentioned. Why? The answer to whether a deal should be cut  is "yes", "maybe", or "no", why the need to throw your weight around?

I have no particular view either way, except I believe a deal should be the perogative of the Chip leader, & I think it's bad form - VERY bad form - for the low stack to initiate the discussion, or even partake in it. He don't get a choice, his only contribution to the debate should be "yes please" or "no thank you". I mean, I should know!

In a recent big Final, the "deal" discussion was orchestrated by the low stack, & caused much ill-feeling. Quite right too.

[wsopin07]

Well said Rob, Financial circumstances plays a huge part in deal making. People shouldnt be berated for either doing or refusing deals. A lot of people think the prize structure plays a big part, maybe in the big buy in tornys it does, but in the regular £20 re-buys, 80% of the time it will get chopped.

One thing that does annoy me is when a person refuses deals when hes got a good stack but asks when hes low. On principle I will refuse when these people are in the final, whether im low or not.

this is why i dont do deals, i will never get in trouble, %100 the same all the time

[wsopin07]

Emotions seem to run hot on this issue. As in most things, the arguments are either black or white, when in reality, there are shades of grey.

We are all entitled to our own views on chopping, and it DOES depend on your financial position. My biggest gripe with deals is that the "discussion" always seems to get heated. A nice, frirendly, good-spirited table descends into a slanging match the moment the word "deal" is mentioned. Why? The answer to whether a deal should be cut  is "yes", "maybe", or "no", why the need to throw your weight around?

I have no particular view either way, except I believe a deal should be the perogative of the Chip leader, & I think it's bad form - VERY bad form - for the low stack to initiate the discussion, or even partake in it. He don't get a choice, his only contribution to the debate should be "yes please" or "no thank you". I mean, I should know!

In a recent big Final, the "deal" discussion was orchestrated by the low stack, & caused much ill-feeling. Quite right too.

Thank you sir, that is really what put me off on this subject, the table was having fun and playing good poker u ntil the "DEAL" was put out. Then it was like work, no fun, everyone was bitching about everything???

[wsopin07]

Some people are in a strong enough financial position and do not need to chop, they play for the glory.

I don't mind doing a deal if it helps someone out. This may seem a bit soft, but I don't see any halm in keeping things flexible and doing a guy a favour. In one final last year , I was chip leader and a guy took be aside at the break and showed me his credit card statement, he was really desperate, so I did a deal with him.

In another situation I was 3 way and chip leader, and the 2 guys wanted to do a deal, i refused, as they were wel known players who play big buy-in events, I busted out 3rd, typical, and they chopped it immediatley!

I guess my point is that its up to the people left in what they do, if they all agree, I don't have a problem with any deals that get done. Deals will never be taken out of Poker, so we need to just live with them.

I know a well known 2 tennis pros who agreed to chop the prize money before a final, it happens everywhere, not just poker. Money is important to a lot of people so THIS is the reason why people CHOP.

Rob, please take this the right way. What you did was very good, I am sure it help that guy at all!!!! If he was playing poker w/ a large credit card bill due I dont think your compasion will help him in the long run. Life is full of choices and many times it is not fair. I have made money this year in poker but I may never $$$$ again!!! I must manage my money and my life w/in my means. When I started playing poker I lost alot of time and money from my real job, I could have made the biggest mistake of my life. It still may be a losing deal $$$$ wise if I dont turnout to be a profitable player. I dont want to be mean to people, I just want to play w/in the rules of the game.

[JP]

A few of my own chop stories as I am also a NON Chopper.

1) Player refuses a saver for 11th fair enough, heads up when I have the chip lead he asks if I would like to do business a polite "no ty" and I won 2 hands later. (i was the shortest stack
    with 11 left and had to go back for the 2nd day)

2) In a 33 player tournament in which I had suggested before the tournament should only pay 6 but was paying 9, we were down to 10 players when the other tables "jointly" suggested
    a saver for 10th the cardroom manager asked our table I said no and a player on the other table wanted to know who said no. (Paying 9 players out of 33 is ridiculous enough 
    without adding something for 10th but that is for another discussion)

3) 4 handed I had the chip lead and 1 player suggested to the other 3 that they give me 1st place money because "they are only playing for 2nd and pointed at my stack"  they then 
     divided 2nd, 3rd and 4th amongst themselves then carried on and played for a special 2nd place extra prize without me. (Is this even allowed?)I am not going to say no to 1st prize no
     strings attached without having to beat them.

4) 10 left and the player looks at his cards THEN asks for "somethin' for 10th" me and riverdave on seperate tables both said no and the player moved all in reluctantly and I called in the bb
     with 9-2 and busted him by hitting a 2 on river! Afterwards he gives me a look of disgust as he leaves the table.

5) Online in a 10 rebuy 5 players left one suggests a deal and 2 others agree. The other short stack and myself both type a simple 'no' in the chatbox to which caused great laughter from
    one player who thought he was doing us both some kind of favour and as I busted 5th I got the, "what an idiot" , "should've chopped" comments. (Why do the railbirds always want
    you to chop surely they want to watch exciting short handed finals...?)
 
    Good Posts Rookie!

[AdamM]

everytime I've made the business end of the final table at Notts a deal has been tables, everytime I've politely declined, and everytime I've felt from that moment on it becomes the field v me. I think the reason it becomes heated is because to many people it's still part of the game.it's a financial negotiation where everyone is trying to get more than their share. The weakest lose out while the forceful profit. Flatter structures and a no deals policy is the best option

[ifm]

There are certain people i will never ever deal with, Craig knows them and DC has mentioned them before, always happy to deal when i'm in front but won't when i'm not.
I don't see why the chipleader should start a deal chat Mr K, it is the business of everyone on a final table as they are all involved in the comp, chipleaders are not the winners of a comp until the end and have no more right than the shortstack.
JP, i remember No1 in your list!!!
I actually made an unfortunate comment on the player in question at the time on here!!
I quickly withdrew it but i did enjoy that you won it, at walsall i believe.

[TightEnd]

JP raises an important point

why in a 28 player tournament are casinos paying down to 9th, with lower prize money than the buy in?..Pay the top 5 or 6 only


my example comes from last two Fridays at Luton

[mikkyT]

I love deals in events that are as close to a crapshoot as one can get. In the usual rebuy affairs that the glasgow casinos offer, mostly populated by casual players - nobody wants to sit there till 3-4am and then go away with nothing, and especially when people are sitting similar stacked, and it becomes an all-in or fold affair.

When I'm chip lead, I don't mind discussing a deal when it is brought up. Similarly, when I am short stacked, I will bring up a deal. You're there to make money and obviously its in your interest to bring up a deal if your exit could well be imminent. But I'm not so stupid to bring up a deal when so short stacked that I only have 2-3 big blinds left. That is verging on desperation. I'd take one if offered of course.

As well, I think it does depend on who you play with. The Riverboat only pays THREE prizes! Chops at 6 or 7 places left are common. This is the fault of the prize structure. In the average bingo game, where you know most if not all of the faces - non of whom are playing professionally - I don't like to see anyone leave the final table with out some sort of prize.

Another example at the other end of the scale. Fridays £250 freezeout at the stanley, 6 players left all roughly even on chips (about 30-35k) apart from Burnly John who had about 20k more than me. Blinds at 3k-6k it was an all-in or fold affair. I had my sights set on 1st prize, as I moved all in with a pair of and John called from BB with AQ and hit a Q high straight on the turn. C'est La Vie. I didnt ask nor expect to take a deal for 6 players - it was a different type of game. I jokingly said once I went out "WHERES MY SAVER!" But it just didnt feel right to mention a deal at such a big occasion.

I suppose what Im trying to say is that its okay going half-ers with your mate in a local back street pub darts match but when your in a large prize pot televised final then its not. Or something.

[TheJagster]

JP raises an important point

why in a 28 player tournament are casinos paying down to 9th, with lower prize money than the buy in?..Pay the top 5 or 6 only


my example comes from last two Fridays at Luton

I have spoken to the chaps at Bolton re this where 30 or so starters is quite common at the moment.

Seems to be a general directive from on high to all the Grosvenors.

[Junior Senior]

A few of my own chop stories as I am also a NON Chopper.

1) Player refuses a saver for 11th fair enough, heads up when I have the chip lead he asks if I would like to do business a polite "no ty" and I won 2 hands later. (i was the shortest stack
    with 11 left and had to go back for the 2nd day)

2) In a 33 player tournament in which I had suggested before the tournament should only pay 6 but was paying 9, we were down to 10 players when the other tables "jointly" suggested
    a saver for 10th the cardroom manager asked our table I said no and a player on the other table wanted to know who said no. (Paying 9 players out of 33 is ridiculous enough 
    without adding something for 10th but that is for another discussion)

3) 4 handed I had the chip lead and 1 player suggested to the other 3 that they give me 1st place money because "they are only playing for 2nd and pointed at my stack"  they then 
     divided 2nd, 3rd and 4th amongst themselves then carried on and played for a special 2nd place extra prize without me. (Is this even allowed?)I am not going to say no to 1st prize no
     strings attached without having to beat them.

4) 10 left and the player looks at his cards THEN asks for "somethin' for 10th" me and riverdave on seperate tables both said no and the player moved all in reluctantly and I called in the bb
     with 9-2 and busted him by hitting a 2 on river! Afterwards he gives me a look of disgust as he leaves the table.

5) Online in a 10 rebuy 5 players left one suggests a deal and 2 others agree. The other short stack and myself both type a simple 'no' in the chatbox to which caused great laughter from
    one player who thought he was doing us both some kind of favour and as I busted 5th I got the, "what an idiot" , "should've chopped" comments. (Why do the railbirds always want
    you to chop surely they want to watch exciting short handed finals...?)
 
    Good Posts Rookie!

lol at number 3! - talk about surrender! - wow!

[mikkyT]

Hows this one then Junior:

Cincinattis, final table. 5 places paid, 6 players left.

One guy, who is a fairly obvious chip leader (possibly 2nd CL) who is at his very first live event having played online for a while. Hes been playing well although very obviously nervous. He asks if everyone is happy just to give him a prize of £50 for him to leave the tournament as he had work the next morning and didnt want to stay any later (buy in was £15 + 1 top-up of £15 which everyone took). Thats £10 off everyones prize. 5th place was just on £100. We nearly bit his hand off! There was a guy at the table who had only a few big blinds left FFS!

We gave him the deal and his chips where removed from play.

Some deals, no matter your stance on them, are just too good not to take!

[Junior Senior]

your lying micky! - no way on earth did that happen. - if it did then the guy wants shooting

[M3boy]

your lying micky! - no way on earth did that happen. - if it did then the guy wants shooting

I agree Junior.

If he wanted to leave, he could of just "gone" and let himself get blinded away - surely he would of made 5th spot at least!!

Or alternatively, just kept going all in on the smaller stacks blinds.

I find this story a little hard to believe!!

(But thats not to say it ISNT true, there are some strange people around you know)