Ugh, not certain on best line in donkament, can we fold?

[AlexMartin]

$100 FO. Average stack 17k, our stack 35k, villain 30k. 20 get paid, 24 left. Blinds 300/600. Villain seems pretty straightforward and solid for past hour or so, hasnt got out of line at all and looks on the tigher side. Prolly views me as conservative tag. Really not sure how to get maximum value whilst protecting our hand somewhat in a deep spot.

Would like to know if this is prolly best line to max a conservative oppo OOP and also whether the turn is call or fold. FWIW i folded so its not a BB story.

Folded to us in SB. Complete w  . Villain checks.

Flops       

We leads out for 1k, villain raises to 3k.

Our move?


We called. Turn  . we check, villain bets 2k, we make it 6k. Villain shoves......and iv been arguning with a mate all day long about the fold.

[Longy]

Well i certainly don't think i would have left this hand without getting my stack in.

I probably look to play for stacks on the flop, make it like 8-10k and call a shove. Im ok with calling the flop but would much prefer to do it in position where it has lots more value imo.

As for the turn, well haven't we only got a pot sized bet back once we get 3 bet shoved on. I know his line looks super strong but in a bvb battle he could well be going crazy with a worse 2 pair imo. Also most hands that are killing us on the turn raise pre even from a tight opponent (kk,1010,44,33, k10). K4 of course does make sense. Plus we has a flush draw and a few odds and sods outs to fill up against parts of his range.

So yeah i get it in, if you stove it Alex if you include just one inferior 2 pair hand(43o for example) it is a call on the turn.

[Rupert]

I prefer raising pre.  People never defend anywhere near enough from the BB and you dont get BvB confrontations very often for them to know you're raising ATC.  I really really dislike your CR on the turn if you're planning to fold.  You still have tons of equity to get there if you're behind.  I think you got into a levelling war regarding his tiny bet, you pretty much turned your hand into a bluff since nothing he raises flop with you get value from since hes already polarized his range to hell.  Just call and C/R or more likely C/C the river.

[Rupert]

I think 3 betting the flop would be pretty bad since I really don't think he value raises KJ/KT here so he pretty much has air/set.  Plus even if he does raise his kings for value, i'd be surprised if he stacks off with it to a 3 bet.  So ya I think 3 betting the flop turns your hand into a bluff except when he spazzs out with 34

[TheChipPrince]

I cannot believe this is a fold! But i think we've got ourselves into a pickle by check raising the turn, i'd flat it and check call virtually all river bets if we don't flush or hit the FH...

As played i'd have to call, were behind to K4/K10 or a set, i can't find a fold...

[MANTIS01]

The flop action is decent enough but I agree with Rupert about the turn action. Not good to c-r unless you want the response you get. Your oppo has already raised you once so you know he's telling you he has something. You've got 2 pair and the potential to improve greatly with the river card. To put yourself in the position where you jeapordise your chances to see that card when you are not confident about your own hand is poor. You have turned a good hand into a bluff.

Is is fair to say that your oppo thinks he has you beat. But don't forget you lead on the flop with your 2 pair. This is not going to look like 2 pair. So any reason for subsequent action can still be related back to this. If your oppo decided to take a flop with K-Q/K-J he is going to think he's ahead right now and would explain his betting pattern. I agree with Longy in suggesting these small pairs are going to raise pre so I don't think he has a set. If I'm raising the turn I'm calling the push, but I'd prefer to c-call the turn any day of the week.

[T_Mar]

Some far more experienced players than me on here, but FWIW on that flop, I'm only thinking about how I get get his entire stack.. BvB so he's not folding anything if he remotely connected on the flop - I re pop to ~9k on the flop, obv calling a shove,  and if he calls, we have ~20k in the pot which is roughly his remaining stack, meaning we can put him in on the turn without it being a massive overbet

[T_Mar]

Some far more experienced players than me on here, but FWIW on that flop, I'm only thinking about how I get get his entire stack.. BvB so he's not folding anything if he remotely connected on the flop - I re pop to ~9k on the flop, obv calling a shove,  and if he calls, we have ~20k in the pot which is roughly his remaining stack, meaning we can put him in on the turn without it being a massive overbet

...so what Longy said basically!!  ... must remember to read the whole thread before posting

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Check call check call...

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: T_Mar

Some far more experienced players than me on here, but FWIW on that flop, I'm only thinking about how I get get his entire stack.. BvB so he's not folding anything if he remotely connected on the flop - I re pop to ~9k on the flop, obv calling a shove,

The problem with re-raising the flop is that it ruins your disguise. Leading out for 1K is a good play imo and doesn't reveal how strong you are. If you were to then re-raise his 3k raise you instantly reveal your strength. I don't think this is a good strat. It gives him ample opportunity to get away from his hand and you win 3k. Calling his 3k raise deprives him of this quality of info and it just looks like you have a bit of something you are reluctant to lay down. I think it is much more likely to generate bigger action if you call the flop rather than raise a raise. So it is no surprise that further action follows. The problem really is his small 2k turn bet which makes K-10 quite possible. Much happier if he bets 4k.

But K-10 is the only hand that I think is beating us right now. Happy to discount sets because small pairs raise pre. If he did take a flop with 4-4 why put in a stiff raise when you hit the jackpot? I am happyish to discount K-4 because he bets 2k on the turn after he bet 3k on the flop. I think he bets more with K-Q as well. Nah he's got K-10. wp Alex.

[ZZZZZZZROPE]

never ever ever folding here tbh

[T_Mar]

Posted by: T_Mar

Some far more experienced players than me on here, but FWIW on that flop, I'm only thinking about how I get get his entire stack.. BvB so he's not folding anything if he remotely connected on the flop - I re pop to ~9k on the flop, obv calling a shove,

The problem with re-raising the flop is that it ruins your disguise. Leading out for 1K is a good play imo and doesn't reveal how strong you are. If you were to then re-raise his 3k raise you instantly reveal your strength. I don't think this is a good strat. It gives him ample opportunity to get away from his hand and you win 3k. Calling his 3k raise deprives him of this quality of info and it just looks like you have a bit of something you are reluctant to lay down. I think it is much more likely to generate bigger action if you call the flop rather than raise a raise. So it is no surprise that further action follows. The problem really is his small 2k turn bet which makes K-10 quite possible. Much happier if he bets 4k.

But K-10 is the only hand that I think is beating us right now. Happy to discount sets because small pairs raise pre. If he did take a flop with 4-4 why put in a stiff raise when you hit the jackpot? I am happyish to discount K-4 because he bets 2k on the turn after he bet 3k on the flop. I think he bets more with K-Q as well. Nah he's got K-10. wp Alex.

I wouldn't of got in this position of having to decide whether he has k10 or another random k (most likely imo) on the turn... .  I know there are arguments for him folding worse hands  if we reraise on the flop but BvB people are less likely to give up top pair hands... by reraising you create a pot that you can make a pot size bet on pretty much any turn and either win a massive pot when he stacks off with a weak K, or add 10k to your stack when he finally realises he's beat and folds... fact you hit a heart on the turn means you got more outs on the river if you been unlucky and he does in fact have k10 (or a set somehow)

[AlexMartin]

Posted by: T_Mar

Some far more experienced players than me on here, but FWIW on that flop, I'm only thinking about how I get get his entire stack.. BvB so he's not folding anything if he remotely connected on the flop - I re pop to ~9k on the flop, obv calling a shove,

The problem with re-raising the flop is that it ruins your disguise. Leading out for 1K is a good play imo and doesn't reveal how strong you are. If you were to then re-raise his 3k raise you instantly reveal your strength. I don't think this is a good strat. It gives him ample opportunity to get away from his hand and you win 3k. Calling his 3k raise deprives him of this quality of info and it just looks like you have a bit of something you are reluctant to lay down. I think it is much more likely to generate bigger action if you call the flop rather than raise a raise. So it is no surprise that further action follows. The problem really is his small 2k turn bet which makes K-10 quite possible. Much happier if he bets 4k.

But K-10 is the only hand that I think is beating us right now. Happy to discount sets because small pairs raise pre. If he did take a flop with 4-4 why put in a stiff raise when you hit the jackpot? I am happyish to discount K-4 because he bets 2k on the turn after he bet 3k on the flop. I think he bets more with K-Q as well. Nah he's got K-10. wp Alex.

OK i lied about folding. Just wanted to keep opinions open.

Superb read Mantis, i wish i could have made the same one. I needed more time tbh to go through the hands but i remember thinking oh fuck i hate that small turn bet, but still called when he shoved over my cr. He had K10, i was only concerned with my hand and maxing its value. Not sure about my line especially CRing the turn, but surely if we dont CR the turn we just let him check behind the river all the time with hands we beat, like all the lower two pairs and oddly played K9/KJ type hands. I was thinking with the turn CR it left us a pot sized river shove for value, but was completely flummoxed when he jammed the lot in. I cant think of a better line, so someone show one.

[TheChipPrince]

Surely you rivered the flush so whats the problem!

[T_Mar]

GF Mantis

Anyone think he lays his K10 down if you reraise the flop?