Annoying Hand

[GlasgowBandit]

This hand has been annoying me since it played out on Friday would like some thoughts on this.  I haven't save the hand history but remember most of it. 

Situation - $36 180 man SNG on stars.  I had been CL for a large part of the tourney playing tight and conservative occasionally stealing some blinds and antes with position.  After going card dead for a level and a half I had lost a few chips but was still comfortable 2nd or 3rd then I get the CL moved to my table we are about 3/4 players off the bubble.  I am playing to win not to sneak into the money.  I suppose I'd have accepted a top 3 if offered at that stage

Anyway I pick up 88 in the high jack, blinds 300/600 I had 24k CL has circa 29k average i think was around 9k blinds are in and there are 3 limpers, general way the table played was most hands people would limp and pass to any raise unless they had a big hand then it was a shove.  So I make it 3250 total with my pocket 8's now CL who since he came to the table has played a few pots and won with sheer aggression just coming OTT.  Never seen him showdown any time I had raised he flatted and if i was missing flops he was just shoving if i checked.  if I bet he was passing.  Pre flop though any limp from me was punnished with a raise and any raise he flatted.

So as he done so often he flats my bet the flop came dow A J 7 rainbow.  I checked to him and he bets half the pot (or round about).  I call.  Now it is possible that he has a weak A, I think its more likely that he has a small pair or maybe some sort of draw to a straight KT, KQ, QT could all be possible.  My spidey senses tell me he doesn't have an A but he could possibly have a J, but my pre flop raise surely he think I have the A or I am repping a big pair especially with the early limpers.  AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ, AA are all posibilities given how tight i have been. 

Turn brings a 2 and I lead out for 8800 and he shoves.  Shit now what?  I could fold and make the money but I want a top 3 finnish really.  Well I want to win.  I don't have him on an A but now I re-evaluate perhaps he could have it, maybe he has complete air and he expects me to fold and sneak into the money power poker. 

What does he have?  What do we do?  given how much of my stack is already in the middle should i just be looking to get it in and hope I am in front?  If I pass I am not so far off the average and i could re-build.

Thoughts welcome.  I just wish I had kept a note of the exact hand.  Having watched a few tourneys in the last few nights with a few of londes regular MTT winners I think this is a spot they would know exactly where they were at and I seemed to struggle.  I think I am good in the hand but do i really take the risk?

What about my play?  was check calling the flop a good idea?  I though check calling and leading the turn looked like a strong play?

[MC]

I think you either have to bet the flop, or check-fold. Check-raising also looks strong but is very risky. Check calling is the worst option I think, it certainly looks like the Ace scares you. Would you really lead out on the turn with a set or a big Ace? Generally not, although this might be a good play in that situation.

Given that this is the chip leader and that he has position and this is a terrible flop for my hand, I don't mind a check fold here, perhaps the lead out but shut down to any further action is optimal imo...

[cambo]

bandit pre is really bad flop is worse, canny be bothered doing it the now ill post tomoz, gl ull need it lol

[Royal Flush]

bandit pre is really bad flop is worse, canny be bothered doing it the now ill post tomoz, gl ull need it lol

What is wrong with pre?

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: GlasgowBandit

CL who since he came to the table has played a few pots and won with sheer aggression just coming OTT.  Never seen him showdown any time I had raised he flatted and if i was missing flops he was just shoving if i checked.  if I bet he was passing.  Pre flop though any limp from me was punnished with a raise and any raise he flatted.

You have been paying attention to the action and have a pretty good appreciation of your oppo's playing habits. This is to your credit. But why do you take the trouble to gather this info if you're not going to put it to any use? If your oppo generally passes when you bet out why would you use 4k chips to c-call? If you are going to put 4k into this pot at all then betting into a oppo who will often fold if you bet seems like a much better use of that money. What's more, you have noticed that if you check your oppo shoves. But he doesn't shove here when you check. He slows right down and bets half the pot. Doesn't this change of strat arouse any suspiscion? If it doesn't why take notice of his habits in the first place?

Leading the turn is poor after c-calling the flop. You are telling a story you are slow-playing a big hand, your oppo is betting into you when you check, and yet you decide to lead a deuce turn on a rainbow flop anyway. You have lost yourself in the hand and now look weak rather than strong. While you are figuring all the hands he could have your betting pattern has meant you have no real quality info with which to make these reads. To be honest he could have anything and the turn pickle you find yourself in is entirely of your own making.

Against this oppo bet the flop with your 8's and only check if you hit a set. As played, I'm afraid you're on your own with this decision my friend. But deffo check the turn.

Pre flop though any limp from me was punnished with a raise

If you're playing the 8's then raising pre appears valid imo.

[ACE2M]

fold now, he isn't scared of you, you are beat. You butchered the hand given your observations as mantis has pointed out. Raising the 88 is standard i raise more though given that i don't want any flop action where decisions will be difficult.

[AlexMartin]

bandit pre is really bad flop is worse, canny be bothered doing it the now ill post tomoz, gl ull need it lol

agree tbh

 bandit, pre i think ur bet sizing is a little off, nothing major but i think you made it bigger for the wrong reasons (vulnerabiity of 88 to overcards flop?). Post is honestly a car carsh. Reminds me of some awful stuff i did the other night (similar but in cash) and is pretty bad. Stab the flop or even c/r the flop/turn but weak lead turn inviting a shove is meh.

Ur line is so weak from a thinking players viewpoint, if you had CR the turn you can get him to fold all but the cream.

[boldie]

I hate the check -call flop and then bet out on the turn. Be consistent here, don't lead out the turn FFS. Check the turn to him and then raise him and get him off it.

[cambo]

bandit pre is really bad flop is worse, canny be bothered doing it the now ill post tomoz, gl ull need it lol

What is wrong with pre?

bet sizeing is all wrong

[Horneris]

bandit pre is really bad flop is worse, canny be bothered doing it the now ill post tomoz, gl ull need it lol

What is wrong with pre?

bet sizeing is all wrong

Why?

300/600, 3 limpers.

Pot = 2,700.

Raise to 3,250 is fine.

I watched a cardrunners vid last night and the cr pro commented that in mid stakes tourns with an appropriate stack, he likes to make it 3 BBs + every limper. So he wouldve made it 1800 + 600 + 600 + 600 = 3,600.

Bandit made it 3,250.

[cambo]

well hes a CR prob so obv better qualified than me, i prefer 2.2/ 2.3

[TheChipPrince]

Pre is fine with me, i'm happy with anything from 3000-3400... Once the chippie calls and we're OOP i'm not gonna get all Phil Ivey/Gus Hansen and think we HAVE to take him on regardless of the flop... I lead out on 95% of flops with a decent size bet or check-raise, check-calling appeals about as much as a 2-week break in Georgia right now...  Bite our tongues when he shows solid resistance, we are allowed to fold in poker...

[cambo]

bandit says " anytime i raised and he called he would just shove if i checked" so with this hand bandit checks and he leads half pot...whats does this mean? screams strength to me.......check calling this flop then donk leading the turn just makes no sence at all and is just inviting a shove cos it looks exactly what it is....weak

[GlasgowBandit]

My thought was leading flop looks standard, check raising the flop also looks standard, check calling leading the turn is not standard but not necessarily weak.  Well to me its not anyway. 

Non standard is not always the way to go but sometimes you need to vary things and if everyone played the same then it would just always come down to hand strength. 

For me my pre flop raise reps a big hand, bet sizing has been mentioned a few times I think a standard raise in this spot is just asking for trouble and inviting the limpers to come along for an almost free ride.  I was actually happy to think it down and play heads up with the villain.  I thought I was able to out play him and out think him even out of position.

When I lead the turn I have committed like 75% of my stack so only a donk things I am folding for my last 6k.  so for him to shove I think he must have a hand, but something just didn't seem right not sure what it was.  So I make the call.

Anyone any ideas what the villain has? 

[boldie]

My thought was leading flop looks standard, check raising the flop also looks standard, check calling leading the turn is not standard but not necessarily weak.  Well to me its not anyway. 

Non standard is not always the way to go but sometimes you need to vary things and if everyone played the same then it would just always come down to hand strength. 

But how do you think it looks to your opponent when he sees you check calling an Ace high flop and then leading out when a blank hits?...What are you trying to represent...you say you're trying to represent a big hand but that doesn't make any sense. Your pre-flop raise says "I have a hand"..but then you check-call the flop and bet out the turn...What does that turn do to cause you to lead out? It is incredibly weak, if you had a big hand you'd be check-raising the turn or at least leading out on the flop...
The biggest of blanks hits the turn, you leading out does not make any sense here if you want to convince your oppo that you have a big hand..is he supposed to think you have hit a set of twos? that the 2 brought you two pair?...What.

For me my pre flop raise reps a big hand, bet sizing has been mentioned a few times I think a standard raise in this spot is just asking for trouble and inviting the limpers to come along for an almost free ride.  I was actually happy to think it down and play heads up with the villain.  I thought I was able to out play him and out think him even out of position.

why does your bet say you have a big hand? Again, that statement doesn't make any sense. You could be nicking the blinds. You could have an average pocket pair. You could have an average hand, You could have a massive hand. There are 4 options...what makes you think your raise says "OH, I HAVE A MONSTER!"?

the second part is of course fine if you actually thought the hand through when you make your plays...there is nothing consistent about the way you play your hand. Unconventional play might be OK sometimes but ussually it's an excuse used by someone who luckboxed his way to a win. There are very few players who can play unconventionally and get away with it..and those guys will have put a lot more thought into it than you did here.

When I lead the turn I have committed like 75% of my stack so only a donk things I am folding for my last 6k.  so for him to shove I think he must have a hand, but something just didn't seem right not sure what it was.  So I make the call.

Anyone any ideas what the villain has? 

again that's why your betting pattern doesn't make any sense...what decent player will now commit chips with the worst of it? If he does have nothing he'll fold as he can't bet you off it...if he does have something you're now commited.

A decent oppo has you by the balls here, he really does.


To me it doesn't matter what Villain has...if you got away with making the call you fluked it more than anything else..nothing to do with you having a good read or having played this particularly brilliantly.


*edit, don't mean to sound harsh here mate..