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Author Topic: Keep The Meta Running  (Read 10638 times)
fergus8
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« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2008, 01:25:34 AM »

[ x ] this thread has bored me to tears
[ x ] this thread has made me regret the decision i made to learn the english language
[   ] i think it will improve on page 4
[   ] i will eagerly await future posts on this thread


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AlexMartin
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« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2008, 01:35:29 AM »

im on tilt with what some ppl think metagame is. it aint rocket science.
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Longy
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« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2008, 01:36:57 AM »

Wow tank, let that be your proposal for a phd in meta game theory.
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Grier78
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« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2008, 10:42:48 AM »

I think it is interesting.Three schools of thought, each with their own thoughts on what the word metagame should mean to a poker player.

I’ve been a little busy, and as far as I can tell, we’re all absolutely correct!

The word metagame seems pretty simple to look at first glance. ‘Game’ comes after the prefix ‘meta’.

We all know what a game is, but what about a meta?

The dictionary lists three definitions for meta. The first one I’ll mention quickly just to get it out of the way... “denoting position behind, after or beyond” (ie, your metatarsals and  metacarpals)

That doesn't have much to do with anything else, so we'll ignore it, but come back to the other two definitons later on.



Game theorists have studied poker as a model for quite some time. Metagame theory is a branch of game theory, and it seems clear to me that the first use of the word metagame in a poker context was more than probably by way of game theory.
 
The game theorist’s metagame seems to be all about choosing the best option based upon what you think your opponent might do. It is a little more complicated than that, and I’ll confess that I do not fully grasp all the specifics, but that is the general jist.
 
By this token, would you believe that the use of metagame in the article Carl wrote is not actually wrong! What he describes is a genuine example of what Doyle Brunson meant by the metagame when he wrote Super System.



This is where I should probably put the second dictionary definition of the prefix meta... “to denote something of a higher or second order.” - ie, metalanguage or metaprogramming

Metalanguage is language used to describe other language, and metaprogramming is a program that programs other programs. It’s easy enough from this to see metagame as “the game within the game.”

So another definition has evolved, and seems to be predominantly the one favoured by the majority of players on here, including myself.
“The game within the game” is all about making decisions and taking action that helps in the future, such as the metagame 'spite call' that Longy described for us earlier in the thread.

It's quite a natural progression. Carl's metagame meant considering other options based upon knowledge of what your opponents might do. The contradiction stems from the the fact that this is pretty much what poker is all about anyway! The word didn’t really fill much of a lexical gap.
The new metagame doesn't have this problem. It fits nicely into everyday poker conversation, and the critical thing is that people actually understand what you're talking about.



Found a metagame you liked? Unfortunately we're not quite done yet?

Into the mix comes Grier78 with his definition of metagame. To describe a location’s differing conditions, such as a poker club, and the successful poker player's need to adjust to them.
 
Game is sometimes omitted, and meta used on its own as a plural noun (The metas are totally different at the weekend. What’s the meta like up where you are?)
 
He reports that the word used in this manner stems from a card game called Magic : The Gathering, that started in 1993.

We can see the game theory roots in there, (adjusting to what you think they’re going to do) but there may be another influence in it coming to be used so...

The last dictionary definition of the prefix meta is to “indicate a change of position or condition” - ie. Metamorphosis.

So it seems that the Magic players have a dual claim to using meta in such a manner.

I couldn’t find too many examples of poker players using metagame in this context if they were not also fans of the Magic card game. That being said Grier78’s metagame is being  used a fair bit while talking about the 52-card game, and so perfectly legitimate.




Anyway, I’ve found this journey into pokolinguistics fun, (because I’m odd like that.)
Possibly bollox, but I'm happy now that I understand meta enough to waffle about it.

Wow amazing effort, well done.
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ShatnerPants
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« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2008, 11:07:22 AM »

At the risk of lowering the tone ( something I'm afraid I do far too often )

Can someone put it into laymans language for me, it's beginning to go a tad over my head.

I thought metagame was refering to using the opponents expectation against him.  IE double bluffing him.

I've always thought Scotty Nguyen's play when he won the WSOP ME was an example of metagame.  IE the idea of poker tells - Strong is weak, weak is strong.

Scotty's speach - You call, it's gonna be all over baby, convinced his opponent that Scotty was weak.

Am I close ?
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madasahatstand
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« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2008, 11:30:29 AM »

Its basically about the bigger picture in poker, whether that is one game or several games. You can see common themes if you look across many games such as check raising, bluffing etc. If you analysed all these components across a range of games you start to see what kind of strategies are beneficial to play because basically you know what works and what doesnt. This gives you the opportunity to refine your game using meta analysis and have an evidence based/ tried and tested approach.

In a single game you decide to play according to how your table is playing - you play aggressive if your table is tight for example,  but you are also considering how the general game of the whole tourny is going and take that into account too. This is playing a game within a game (table) within a game (tourney).

It seems there are many levels within the game but meta is bigger picture thinking imo

I hope I didnt confuse you more? lol
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ShatnerPants
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« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2008, 11:49:44 AM »


I hope I didnt confuse you more? lol

Yup.

But I'll read it again after a beer.

 Wink
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madasahatstand
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« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2008, 11:51:08 AM »

I find beer does help, not that it clears confusion, you just care less about being confused...Smiley
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ShatnerPants
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« Reply #53 on: August 17, 2008, 12:16:28 PM »

I find beer does help, not that it clears confusion, you just care less about being confused...Smiley

 thumbs up

True.
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thetank
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« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2008, 08:51:38 PM »

I'll try to summarize my waffle for you shatner. There are three different meanings of the word.

You are playing the poker metagame when...

1. you decide upon what action to take based on what you think your opponents might do.

2. you make a play that you do not expect to pay off immediately, but will have some benefit for you in the future.

or

3. You can say that there is a change in the metagame whenever there is a change in the conditions of the table. For example, loose to tight.

Hope that helps more   thumbs up
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ShatnerPants
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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2008, 10:53:43 AM »

I'll try to summarize my waffle for you shatner. There are three different meanings of the word.

You are playing the poker metagame when...

1. you decide upon what action to take based on what you think your opponents might do.

2. you make a play that you do not expect to pay off immediately, but will have some benefit for you in the future.

or

3. You can say that there is a change in the metagame whenever there is a change in the conditions of the table. For example, loose to tight.

Hope that helps more   thumbs up

That actually makes sense .

There's hope for the old git , yet.

Cheers

 
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #56 on: August 18, 2008, 04:51:46 PM »

I'll try to summarize my waffle for you shatner. There are three different meanings of the word.

You are playing the poker metagame when...

1. you decide upon what action to take based on what you think your opponents might do.

2. you make a play that you do not expect to pay off immediately, but will have some benefit for you in the future.

or

3. You can say that there is a change in the metagame whenever there is a change in the conditions of the table. For example, loose to tigh
t.

Hope that helps more   thumbs up

That actually makes sense .

There's hope for the old git , yet.

Cheers

 

i have issues with this.  dont think it truly fits into the context of metagame. a and b spot on.
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ariston
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« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2008, 05:12:00 PM »

so complicated this thread lol. Cant help wondering if any of you have used any meta theory without realising it.

simple example- biggest fish in your live game who loses chunks every week. He looks to be getting a little bit fed up and starts saying he may not come anymore even though he has lost thousands every night for months. Last hand of the night he bets a £300 at you on the river and you are sure he has you beat but are a £3k up on the night, would it be so bad to pay him a few hundred off the last hand of the night? its only a tiny % of your profit on the night and you are pretty certain if you send him home with the taste of that one win he will be back tomorrow. would it be so bad to massage his ego a little telling him you are going to have to be carefull with him in future as hes playing a lot better etc etc etc?

there are plenty different levels of metagame theory and if you look at some of the top players in the world it should show you how they use it. DN for example- how does he play? caling station, loose etc etc etc. Gus hansen- maniac... if you watch closely whenever they play a huge pot in tourneys they seem to have a monster though. You think that is by accident? Its nice to have a loose crazy image and when it comes down to it always get your chips in good ,also a loose crazy image means less people will steal or bluff you as you are capable of calling with anything- how many of you have seen the gus- I have have ten high I have to call v antonio esfandari? was it a coincidence it was in a tv invitational event that meant nothing? everyone remembers that hand though so it was very good advertising
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« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2008, 12:04:58 PM »

I just noticed a few negatives about my last article......dont mind that at all but let me put the record straight a bit. Like Snoops said, I dont get paid to write the articles on this site and I sure as hell dont have to do them. I write for numerous magazines and websites, non of which I have ever mentioned in any of my articles despite having a vested interest to do so. I have mentioned things that have been instrumental in helping me personally in my progression as a player.

But rest assured to the people on here, there will be no more mentions of anyone in any future articles and as for my sponsor then I was given permission by Snoops to post this. So in future, no one will have any reason to get upset.

The Dean
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bolt pp
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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2008, 09:31:20 PM »

blonde removing the article is bad form imhumbleO snoops. just coz it aint getting glowing reviews and he does some corporate spiel you remove it.

 Carls a decent writer and has had good reviews on here before, why should it be censored? Goes against the blonde ethos i reckon.

I completely agree,unfortunately(but i couldn't find a better standard of poster that said the same thing to quote)  Roll Eyes

this tilted me when i read the first few posts before clicking the link only to see you've taken it down, i really agree it does go against the blonde ethos, subtle spam aside the OP has now posted and seems to be ok with the criticism so cant we have it back up?

it would be very bad IMO not too, it's like saying we're having all these articles and everyone loves eachother but if something doesn't go the way we want we'll just shut it all down because we dont want to offend someone that's written something of their own volition whos an authority on the subject!

If he was the kind of person(and i doubt he is) that was so offended by some of the comment he decided to say "fuck you lot at blonde im never writing anything again because i didnt get my arse licked when i did so i'm off" would you really want that person writing for blonde anyway?
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