Croatia Vs England

[AndrewT]

if you read again i think find i said gerrard should be in ahead of lampard. but people are debateing whether lampard should play now gerrards out imo thats a nothing debate.
but i also feel that under a manager with the right ideas  lampard and gerrard can adapt to play together.

Obviously if Gerrard is out then I play Lampard ldo.

However, I can't see a situation where Gerrard+Lampard is going to be better than Gerrard+Someone Else. An England manager shouldn't try and adapt Gerrard and Lampard's game so they can play together - he should just pick different players who are naturally better at what he wants to do. We're not Armenia - there is a decent player pool to pick from. A club manager can, in time, change a player's game (like Wenger did with Henry) but an international manager has to work with what he gets from the clubs.

your comparison of the lampard/gerrard situation to the shilton/clemence situation is laughable imo and not worth commenting or debating, if you cant see why im sorry im not wasteing my typing finger  

Yes, it was a joke, but underlined with a serious point. No one would even consider playing a keeper out of position, but would do the same for an outfield player. My point is that, in an international team, trying to turn Lampard into something he's not is just as silly.

[TheChipPrince]

Ive said it before and i'll say it again, a fit and playing Ben Foster will be England No. 1 in 12+ months time...

[kinboshi]

Tonight we're playing a decent side.  But even with the players we're missing, we should have more than enough to beat them.  We'll have to play a lot better than we did at the weekend though.

Croatia are at home.  Croatia beat us twice in the qualifying stages of the Euros.  Croatia qualified for the Euros, we didnt.  Croatia are ranked 5 in the world. England are ranked 15.  I dont see any reason why we should have enough to beat them.

I'm not saying we will.  I'm saying with the players we have available we should be able to beat them.

But we have had these players available for the last 2 years and didnt look like doing it then.  I really hope i am wrong, but i struggle to see us getting anything tonight.

I'm agreeing with you.  I don't know why England don't perform better than they do, because with the players available in the team - we should do better.

[kinboshi]

Ive said it before and i'll say it again, a fit and playing Ben Foster will be England No. 1 in 12+ months time...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, your signature means nothing.

[turny]

No, Turny, just in general.

I have to argue this sort of thing with Billy a lot, too. I agree that with Gerrard out we should play Lampard but I wouldn't play Lampard if I had the choice of the full squad.


Who was the keeper they played v. Croatia last time and he blundered ( I think it was the Croatia game )

Carson, I believe? I'd be more inclined to play him over James. I think he's good, but probably felt the pressure that night.

i think you will find im the only "chelsea nut" posting on this thread at this time so natura that i assume you are throwing your accusations at me.


but i think i make the same point as you regards gerrards selection in front of lampard so i cant really see your point.

[Josedinho]

Crouch wasn't included in the squad.  Bonkers if you ask me.  

David James is playing well - and if he stands out in the Premiership as a quality keeper (which he has been doing), then that's international standard imo.

All the talk of individual personnel is a bit of a smokescreen really.  England has the players to put out two decent sides (not world beaters, but decent).  The way we played against Andorra was woeful, and a team made up of players from the Championship would have won by more than 2-0.

Tonight we're playing a decent side.  But even with the players we're missing, we should have more than enough to beat them.  We'll have to play a lot better than we did at the weekend though.

i think the performance against andorra was not as bad as made out. the days of beating "weaker" nations by 5 or 6 goals are long gone. these teams have wised up and get everyone behind the ball at every oppurtunity so are harder to break down.

those who play football will tell you the hardest teams to beat are those who dont want to play, that just want to survive. a bit like a rock in poker happy to blind to the money lol

Germany won 6-0 at the weekend.

[TheChipPrince]

Ive said it before and i'll say it again, a fit and playing Ben Foster will be England No. 1 in 12+ months time...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, your signature means nothing.

 

[Matt50]

No, Turny, just in general.

I have to argue this sort of thing with Billy a lot, too. I agree that with Gerrard out we should play Lampard but I wouldn't play Lampard if I had the choice of the full squad.


Who was the keeper they played v. Croatia last time and he blundered ( I think it was the Croatia game )

Carson, I believe? I'd be more inclined to play him over James. I think he's good, but probably felt the pressure that night.

i think you will find im the only "chelsea nutter" posting on this thread at this time so natura that i assume you are throwing your accusations at me.


but i think i make the same point as you regards gerrards selection in front of lampard so i cant really see your point.

FYP 

[relaedgc]

I am sure there are many chelsea fans and I read a post with someone stating people ought to stop defending their teams in international football debates. So if we're going to go on assumptions, that was the thinking behind mine.

Your decision to go on the defensive, I am afraid. And really. If I wanted to insult your intelligence, I wouldn't do it over Frank Lampard lol.

My point is that I wouldn't play Lampard. He isn't going to learn to play with Gerrard. How can he? Not like Scolari will encourage it. We need to look for a substitute to play with Gerrard because Gerrard is the better of the two and has the passion.

None of the players these days have the passion. Pearce, Gascoigne and Shearer actually loved playing for their country. We've so few players like that now that's got to be more ruthless. If they don't want to perform, just don't play them. We've got plenty of players dying for the chance.

[turny]

if you read again i think find i said gerrard should be in ahead of lampard. but people are debateing whether lampard should play now gerrards out imo thats a nothing debate.
but i also feel that under a manager with the right ideas  lampard and gerrard can adapt to play together.

Obviously if Gerrard is out then I play Lampard ldo.

However, I can't see a situation where Gerrard+Lampard is going to be better than Gerrard+Someone Else. An England manager shouldn't try and adapt Gerrard and Lampard's game so they can play together - he should just pick different players who are naturally better at what he wants to do. We're not Armenia - there is a decent player pool to pick from. A club manager can, in time, change a player's game (like Wenger did with Henry) but an international manager has to work with what he gets from the clubs.

your comparison of the lampard/gerrard situation to the shilton/clemence situation is laughable imo and not worth commenting or debating, if you cant see why im sorry im not wasteing my typing finger  

Yes, it was a joke, but underlined with a serious point. No one would even consider playing a keeper out of position, but would do the same for an outfield player. My point is that, in an international team, trying to turn Lampard into something he's not is just as silly.

my point is lampard would be better in other positions than others but again imo.
lampard is not a one dimentional player he does more than hes sometimes given credit for and il be suprised if any other player covers more ground than him tonight

[turny]

Crouch wasn't included in the squad.  Bonkers if you ask me.  

David James is playing well - and if he stands out in the Premiership as a quality keeper (which he has been doing), then that's international standard imo.

All the talk of individual personnel is a bit of a smokescreen really.  England has the players to put out two decent sides (not world beaters, but decent).  The way we played against Andorra was woeful, and a team made up of players from the Championship would have won by more than 2-0.

Tonight we're playing a decent side.  But even with the players we're missing, we should have more than enough to beat them.  We'll have to play a lot better than we did at the weekend though.

i think the performance against andorra was not as bad as made out. the days of beating "weaker" nations by 5 or 6 goals are long gone. these teams have wised up and get everyone behind the ball at every oppurtunity so are harder to break down.

those who play football will tell you the hardest teams to beat are those who dont want to play, that just want to survive. a bit like a rock in poker happy to blind to the money lol

Germany won 6-0 at the weekend.

its rarer nowdays thats all im saying. happy now mr smartarse?

[Matt50]

It would have been interesting had Gerrard signed for Chelsea a few years ago whether Mourinho would have managed to get them to play together.

[turny]

I am sure there are many chelsea fans and I read a post with someone stating people ought to stop defending their teams in international football debates. So if we're going to go on assumptions, that was the thinking behind mine.

Your decision to go on the defensive, I am afraid. And really. If I wanted to insult your intelligence, I wouldn't do it over Frank Lampard lol.

My point is that I wouldn't play Lampard. He isn't going to learn to play with Gerrard. How can he? Not like Scolari will encourage it. We need to look for a substitute to play with Gerrard because Gerrard is the better of the two and has the passion.

None of the players these days have the passion. Pearce, Gascoigne and Shearer actually loved playing for their country. We've so few players like that now that's got to be more ruthless. If they don't want to perform, just don't play them. We've got plenty of players dying for the chance.

come on do u really think anyone would go out, pull on an england shirt then think "fuck it im not giving 100% today"?

i doubt that considerably tbh.

players can rule themselves out of international duty if they really feel that way

because they dont fall about crying,clutch the badge at every oppurtunity or pump the air all the time doesnt mean they arent passionate.

[turny]

It would have been interesting had Gerrard signed for Chelsea a few years ago whether Mourinho would have managed to get them to play together.

very interesting imo. he obviously see a way they could and hes a far better judge than anyone whose posted on this thread!

[relaedgc]

I am sure there are many chelsea fans and I read a post with someone stating people ought to stop defending their teams in international football debates. So if we're going to go on assumptions, that was the thinking behind mine.

Your decision to go on the defensive, I am afraid. And really. If I wanted to insult your intelligence, I wouldn't do it over Frank Lampard lol.

My point is that I wouldn't play Lampard. He isn't going to learn to play with Gerrard. How can he? Not like Scolari will encourage it. We need to look for a substitute to play with Gerrard because Gerrard is the better of the two and has the passion.

None of the players these days have the passion. Pearce, Gascoigne and Shearer actually loved playing for their country. We've so few players like that now that's got to be more ruthless. If they don't want to perform, just don't play them. We've got plenty of players dying for the chance.

come on do u really think anyone would go out, pull on an england shirt then think "fuck it im not giving 100% today"?

i doubt that considerably tbh.

players can rule themselves out of international duty if they really feel that way

because they dont fall about crying,clutch the badge at every oppurtunity or pump the air all the time doesnt mean they arent passionate.

Talking about extremes is not a good way to put forward an argument. Obviously, no, they are not thinking "I am going to play shit tonight. I don't care."

At the same time, I do believe they're going out with the mentality that they're not in danger of losing their team place along with the lack of drive and determination other countries have due to their prestigiously high wages and greater focus on the Premiership. A point not helped by Fergie and co.

Give me an XI of top flight players not considered good enough for England and the current England XI and you can bet your life they'd have the game of their life because the burning desire to prove oneself and to win will ignite in the lesser able team and they'll take the game to the First XI. That sort of mentality is what is missing.