Nut flush draw for the final.

[StuartHopkin]

Went back to gala tonight for the first time in ages and really enjoyed it. This is the hand that cost me my stack. There was 40 people left and i think realising it was a hand to get to the average for the final may have affected how i played. Any thoughts would be nice.

Blinds 300/600 8 handed average is 20k 40 left

UTG + 2 (10k) solidish but obv trying to get a double up
UTG + 3 (30k) fishy madness, god know what planet he is on
UTG + 4 (30k) me

UTG + 2 raises to 16, fishy bloke calls, i call behind with 

Flop comes   

UTG + 2 bets 2.5k
UTG + 3 raises to 10k

This is where i think i went wrong, i decided i was getting the implied odds to try and stack them both. So i flat called again. UTG + 2 folds.

Fishy bloke bets 10k on a blank river.
I flat call.

Miss on the river and it pairs the board. Fishy guy moves all in and i instafold.

Any thoughts gratefully received (no need to point out the sweet sweet irony of referring to the guy as fishy when im fishing against a made set for a club) 

[Robbo63]

You big callin station     sorry I just don't like the play.

[StuartHopkin]

No i dont like it either! Thats why im posting because im not sure what i should have done.

Im struggling to find a fold.
If i shove the flop i lose anyway, no way fishy guy is folding his 10. If he didnt have it then well played to him.

Are you folding on the flop Robbo?

[NoflopsHomer]

Fold or reraise preflop. Fold or shove the flop.

[Robbo63]

Fold or reraise preflop. Fold or shove the flop.

There is your answer

[MC]

You did everything wrong here lol.

Preflop - You have to jam it all in here. You're only risking 10k really cos "fishy guy" is surely folding unless he's slow playing a monster which is highly unlikely. You crush the 1st guys range too...

Flop - Once you've flat called, I don't see how you aren't all in on this flop. He can't have a ten here. You're at worst 50% here and you would have fold equity if you shoved.

Turn - Once the turn blanks and the guy bets, think you have to fold here. Hence why you should have jammed sooner...

[EvilPie]

This is where i think i went wrong, i decided i was getting the implied odds to try and stack them both. So i flat called again. UTG + 2 folds.

How are you getting implied odds here?

Surely if you hit you're not stacking either of them? You're praying that the bigger stack has trips to have any chance of getting paid in which case you are losing a couple of your outs by the time you hit the river.

Running the hand through a calc and assuming the oppo has trips you get:

pokenum  -h   -   --
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing
cards  win   %win  lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
  259  26.16   731  73.84    0  0.00  0.262
  731  73.84   259  26.16    0  0.00  0.738


You're putting 10k in to a 20k pot. UTG + 3 has about 18k back so the most you win is 38k for your 10k assuming you stack him.

Doesn't seem enough to me especially considering that 2 of your hits will probably lead to him stacking you.

When you miss the turn you're down to about 16% and you call another 10k.

You know what you should've done when he said "ten thousand euros"

"10000 euros!!!!! You won't see penny one from me you slag!!!!!"

You should've brought your enormous thumb down on the flop and put his tiny shamen ass all in. Oh the sweet irony.

[StuartHopkin]

Yeah i over allowed for the wet jigsaw and the black voodoo.

As said I was way swayed by the thought of getting my hans on 70 odd k

But interesting points here.

I didnt think Mamann was folding for his 7.5k he had left. If the fishy guy had a 10 as suspected i dont think he will fold if a 3rd club comes. Chippy was calling him fishy to his face and he asks 'what mean this'?

Taking all that into account the thought that ran through my head was, 10k to win 46k ish. Therefore its a call.
I could have folded the turn but i didnt want to

Thats enough of a reply for you Mr Pie now on to MC

Does anyone agree with the shove pre? Personally the thought never entered my head. AJ just doesnt cut it for me.

How does the fishy guy not have a 10? He has a huge range from what id seen, pretty sure he had a 10 to make the reraise, if it was an overpair he would have raised preflop. 

I agree with the fold on the turn but at the time I thought a club might be coming to save the day! 

[EvilPie]

Taking all that into account the thought that ran through my head was, 10k to win 46k ish. Therefore its a call.

But by flat calling you only get to see one card and if that isn't the one you want you're screwed. Therefore you're only actually getting 16% on each street. This obviously assumes that it's going to cost again to see the river.

If you miss the turn you start again so you're back at 16%.

To get the full 26% you need to get the lot in and then you've not got the correct pot odds but at least you have some fold equity.

[StuartHopkin]

Lolaments.

I know all this, you know i know all this! Thats why im asking the question what should i have done!
Stop pointing out the fact im a poker joker and tell me what i should have done!

Raise pre? Fold or Shove on the flop? Or Intsahurdygurdysnappumpflipdoubleflopfoldaments?

[EvilPie]

Lolaments.

I know all this, you know i know all this! Thats why im asking the question what should i have done!
Stop pointing out the fact im a poker joker and tell me what i should have done!

Raise pre? Fold or Shove on the flop? Or Intsahurdygurdysnappumpflipdoubleflopfoldaments?

But you said you had the implied odds. I'm saying you didn't.

Raise pre, enough commit the solid player. Fishy player's range is huge but you'll narrow it considerably with an 8k raise.

As played shove or fold the flop. Deffo don't flat, there's no value in that.

[StuartHopkin]

I think if it happened again i would raise pre and shove the flop.
I think the other factor is that i dont think AJ is very strong, if it was AQ im raising all day pre.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: StuartHopkin

UTG + 2 (10k) solidish but obv trying to get a double up
UTG + 3 (30k) fishy madness, god know what planet he is on
UTG + 4 (30k) me

See those descriptions you have given your oppos. What is the point of getting that info if you aren't prepared to use it? A squeeze play is a good move. Well powerful when timed right. I would say desperate shortstack called by fishy madness pre-flop seems like a good spot. Or what's the point in those descriptions. The people who will be getting to the final will be either lucky players or players taking control of their situation. The problem is that while your stack gives you the opportunity to take control you decide to use it in the hope of getting lucky instead. So you will only make final tables when you get lucky, and I swear that's not a lot of the time.

[EvilPie]

I think if it happened again i would raise pre and shove the flop.
I think the other factor is that i dont think AJ is very strong, if it was AQ im raising all day pre.

But dude. It's sooooooooted!!!!!!

[MC]

I think the other factor is that i dont think AJ is very strong

But is is very strong against a short-stack and a nutter...