Tricky spot? Shove or fold?

[FuglyBaz]

PokerStars Game #20367892213: Tournament #107915322, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/09/13 5:12:00 ET
Table '107915322 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: roroforpoker (1425 in chips)
Seat 2: belladonna05 (1100 in chips)
Seat 4: HERO (2165 in chips)
Seat 5: Mefo1 (2805 in chips)
Seat 6: sknzz fan (1445 in chips)
Seat 7: 02springer (2390 in chips)
Seat 8: RobPol (1135 in chips)
Seat 9: sdlucklady (1035 in chips)
sdlucklady: posts small blind 25
roroforpoker: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [ Ah]
belladonna05: folds
HERO: raises 100 to 150
Mefo1: folds
sknzz fan: folds
02springer: folds
RobPol: folds
sdlucklady: calls 125
roroforpoker: folds
*** FLOP *** [ ]
sdlucklady: checks
HERO: checks
*** TURN *** [ ] []
sdlucklady: checks
HERO: bets 225
sdlucklady: raises 225 to 450

hero???

I lean towards reraising because wtf have they flat called with out of positon?

Results after opinions

[ShatnerPants]

What's wrong with calling ?

I'm assuming it's a flush draw, a weak pair, or a monster ( trips , probably )

If a push has any FE then it might be worth a go, but I think it's a guaranteed call from villain. 

You've only got a small hand, keep the pot small imo.

I'm not good enough to fold for a min raise, so I'm calling and seeing what the river brings.  If the flush comes, and villain pushes, I'm out of there, but if another 9 comes, I'll probably double up a full house 

[MC]

A ten probably leads out the turn.

Calling seems pointless as surely they're shoving the river with their remaining 500 chips. I think this is a shove.

[ShatnerPants]

A ten probably leads out the turn.

Calling seems pointless as surely they're shoving the river with their remaining 500 chips. I think this is a shove.

Coz it's only 500 behind, he's not going to fold to a push.  Yes, he'll lump it in on the river ( probably ), but even though it's 2.5 /1 to call, does that mean we have to call, even if it's a scare card?

[ShatnerPants]

A ten probably leads out the turn.

Calling seems pointless as surely they're shoving the river with their remaining 500 chips. I think this is a shove.

If this is the case , does that mean we might just as well have pushed the turn ? IE not make the 225 bet, just push in first ?

[Royal Flush]

Just shove, ul

[Royal Flush]

Oh and bet the flop!

[MANTIS01]

The best way to play this hand is to fold it pre-flop. You are UTG+1 and raising with A-9o when the blinds are 25/50. So your hand is weak, there is barely anything in the pot, you will prob get multi-way action, you aren't deep, you are oop. I don't see much going in your favour, so why volunteer to play a raised pot with this hand? What happens when you do get involved is you will be raised pre or will get some awkward decision for lots of chips with a weak 1 pair hand on the flop or will have to bluff a lot yourself. I fold A-J in that position. Raising with  is better than raising with A-9o here imo.

[Royal Flush]

The best way to play this hand is to fold it pre-flop. You are UTG+1 and raising with A-9o when the blinds are 25/50. So your hand is weak, there is barely anything in the pot, you will prob get multi-way action, you aren't deep, you are oop. I don't see much going in your favour, so why volunteer to play a raised pot with this hand? What happens when you do get involved is you will be raised pre or will get some awkward decision for lots of chips with a weak 1 pair hand on the flop or will have to bluff a lot yourself. I fold A-J in that position. Raising with  is better than raising with A-9o here imo.

Agreed although i fold the 53s as well

[FuglyBaz]

The best way to play this hand is to fold it pre-flop. You are UTG+1 and raising with A-9o when the blinds are 25/50. So your hand is weak, there is barely anything in the pot, you will prob get multi-way action, you aren't deep, you are oop. I don't see much going in your favour, so why volunteer to play a raised pot with this hand? What happens when you do get involved is you will be raised pre or will get some awkward decision for lots of chips with a weak 1 pair hand on the flop or will have to bluff a lot yourself. I fold A-J in that position. Raising with  is better than raising with A-9o here imo.

I wasn't getting many hands and thought I'd get respect from the table if I raised from early position.

The other person in the hand had pocket jacks, and yes I shoved all in, and he/she took ages to call. Arent pocket jacks tough enough to play without flat calling pre flop?

[AlexMartin]

fold pre. the rest is a compound error.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: FuglyBaz

I wasn't getting many hands and thought I'd get respect from the table if I raised from early position.

The other person in the hand had pocket jacks, and yes I shoved all in, and he/she took ages to call. Arent pocket jacks tough enough to play without flat calling pre flop?

Yeah, its a fair enough idea, but with the blinds 25/50 and just a 150 raise, any respect is going to be diluted by the cheap price. With blinds at 200/400, a 1200 raise with the same hand from the same position with the same image is probably going to have the effect you are looking for. Right thinking wrong time imo. Patience is important in tournament play. In this situation because you haven't had a hand in a while you have let your frustration out by gambling really light with 2nd pair. If you look closer you will see that you believed your raise would get respect, and Jacks man gave you that. However, when he c-min raises you on the turn he's not respecting you now, he's taking the piss all of a sudden, so you shove for your tournament. Mixed signals strat imo. You don't think your oppo respects you anymore....because you have hit a card. But you can see how those two things have no relation with each other. Why bet the turn at all? Are you bluffing? Are you value betting? You bet the 9 because you hit the card and nothing more than that.

Anyway we want to be getting our chips in with the advantage, and raising with this hand here was always going to make that a real struggle. So fold pre. The rest is compound error. Yeah, I like that.

[Royal Flush]

Posted by: FuglyBaz

I wasn't getting many hands and thought I'd get respect from the table if I raised from early position.

The other person in the hand had pocket jacks, and yes I shoved all in, and he/she took ages to call. Arent pocket jacks tough enough to play without flat calling pre flop?

Yeah, its a fair enough idea, but with the blinds 25/50 and just a 150 raise, any respect is going to be diluted by the cheap price. With blinds at 200/400, a 1200 raise with the same hand from the same position with the same image is probably going to have the effect you are looking for. Right thinking wrong time imo. Patience is important in tournament play. In this situation because you haven't had a hand in a while you have let your frustration out by gambling really light with 2nd pair. If you look closer you will see that you believed your raise would get respect, and Jacks man gave you that. However, when he c-min raises you on the turn he's not respecting you now, he's taking the piss all of a sudden, so you shove for your tournament. Mixed signals strat imo. You don't think your oppo respects you anymore....because you have hit a card. But you can see how those two things have no relation with each other. Why bet the turn at all? Are you bluffing? Are you value betting? You bet the 9 because you hit the card and nothing more than that.

Anyway we want to be getting our chips in with the advantage, and raising with this hand here was always going to make that a real struggle. So fold pre. The rest is compound error. Yeah, I like that.

tbf against a double check his 9 here is good 99% of the time

[FuglyBaz]

Yeah, its a fair enough idea, but with the blinds 25/50 and just a 150 raise, any respect is going to be diluted by the cheap price. With blinds at 200/400, a 1200 raise with the same hand from the same position with the same image is probably going to have the effect you are looking for. Right thinking wrong time imo. Patience is important in tournament play. In this situation because you haven't had a hand in a while you have let your frustration out by gambling really light with 2nd pair. If you look closer you will see that you believed your raise would get respect, and Jacks man gave you that. However, when he c-min raises you on the turn he's not respecting you now, he's taking the piss all of a sudden, so you shove for your tournament. Mixed signals strat imo. You don't think your oppo respects you anymore....because you have hit a card. But you can see how those two things have no relation with each other. Why bet the turn at all? Are you bluffing? Are you value betting? You bet the 9 because you hit the card and nothing more than that.

Anyway we want to be getting our chips in with the advantage, and raising with this hand here was always going to make that a real struggle. So fold pre. The rest is compound error. Yeah, I like that.

tbf against a double check his 9 here is good 99% of the time

I quoted all so i can respond without multiple posts.

MANTIS - I was told that a raise 3xBB is the only raise I should be doing. This is advice from Royal Flush in my min raising thread, so I'm following his advice.

Post flop I was betting as I had in ages, I thought A9 was ahead, and to be fair I feel the same as flushy, that I'm ahead a hell of a lot of the time.

I wont defend my raise pre flop because it isnt good, and it certainly isnt something I have a habit of doing. I allowed some of the other bad play to tilt me and this particular hand was the result.

Can somebody address the issue with flat calling with JJ out of position. AA and even KK if no A hits the flop, then fine I guess (though I dont do this myself) but with JJ surely that is too risky? Especially as if a queen hits JJ will most likely go all in as one scare card often aint enough.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: Royal Flush

tbf against a double check his 9 here is good 99% of the time

Maybe the % is a little lower than that. But anyway the point is that in the scheme of things the 9 isn't a good card to bet at. Your ep raise and flop check tell him what? You can only have a set of 10's if you're big. Other than that you missed and he won't believe a 9 helped you. If you bet the turn you might just get raised out of principle because your bet is so unbelievable. So where does betting actually get you? You get hands you beat folding when that is something you don't want and you lose control of the pot size. Now that your weak holding has hit I think it's a good time to check again and just call or vb the river. This is more in keeping with the strength of your hand.

Baz I don't like your starting hand not your raise size which is fine. Also Jacks man calls because you are tight and raise from ep so you are representing a big hand. Then you check the flop. If the turn bet was like 150 it would go with your flop check much better but much better not to bet the 9 at all imo.