Odd four handed spot in 45 man donk and go

[dino1980]

Four left in a 45 man $25 turbo on stars, payouts 345/240/175/140

Blinds are 400/800/50 there are two short stacks with 5bbs each, we have just shy of 20bbs (and about 10 times the pot) with a 15.3k stack and there is a runaway chip leader, to our direct right thankfully, with 44k who has been steamrolling the table since we were six handed and has been generally opening to 4x. He's not shown down any terrible hands but has shown down hands such as Q-J when called by shorties and has generally been in god mode at the final table.

Then this hand comes up. Two questions, due to the somewhat strange dynamics of the chip stacks and the aggressiveness of the BB chipleader a) what hands should I be opening with UTG and b) what hand(s) should I be calling all-in with when he shoves on me?


Seat 1: dewaw (3975 in chips)
Seat 3: Nuapte (44095 in chips)
Seat 5: dino1980 (15305 in chips)
Seat 7: Lestinho (4125 in chips)
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dino1980 XX
dino1980: raises 1600 to 2400
Lestinho: folds
dewaw: folds
Nuapte: raises 16800 to 19200
dino1980: ??

[thetank]

If he's going to shove OTT of your raise close to 100% of the time then the answer to a and b should be the same. (If we know he's going to pop us, no point in raising unless we intend to call)

I spent a few minutes and put the payout structure and those stacks into Wiz. Just computed the shove with him calling 100% of the time, effectively the same sum assuming above is true (he shoves over you with ATC)

It says you need TT+ (ditching AKs)

[maldini32]

99+...aq+

[Longy]

Make your raise smaller (2000 would be my default here) especially if you feel he is going to come over you light and therefore you will fold some of your range plus it may induce him to shove if we have aa/kk etc. I doubt he has ATC here but his range is probably very wide as it should be.

My calling range when i first looked at this was something like ak, jj+ given stacks interestingly tank has wizd this and we can even chuck ak.

[TheChipPrince]

I'm not chucking AK here, not unless we have the intention, and are happy fo finish 2nd... 10's+ AK, maybe even AQ sooooted...

And I definately aint raising him with the intention to fold, so you must have a strong hand, pointless picking on the chippie otherwise...

You had QQ?  Him a raggy A?

[dino1980]

Make your raise smaller (2000 would be my default here) especially if you feel he is going to come over you light and therefore you will fold some of your range plus it may induce him to shove if we have aa/kk etc. I doubt he has ATC here but his range is probably very wide as it should be.

My calling range when i first looked at this was something like ak, jj+ given stacks interestingly tank has wizd this and we can even chuck ak.

Totally agree with this and I usually would/do in mtts once antes have kicked in or it's 200/400, I make it 2.5x+ an ante. Reason I didn't in this spot was because I haven't actually had a spot to standard open since about three tables out, so no one is aware that i'd usually 2.5x it and because I'd already decided that based on hand strength and my stack being <20bbs that i was not open raising/folding. This is perhaps a leak idk, although against players at my level I wonder if you can be totally transparent as they won't usually pick up on things such as this.

P.S Tank tyty for running the numbers and agree a+b should be the same

[MANTIS01]

I agree with most of the replies so far. I wouldn't be raising with any hand I'm not going all the way with. I think the first objective for you is to get HU with the CL, so raising his bb even with a solid hand isn't a good idea imo. If you raise UTG you will have to negotiate two shorties who will be pushing a lot and a big stack who's confidence is high. The 2nd of those hurdles is more of a worry because the CL has seen his aggressive strat pay dividends which puts you in a vulnerable situation with the ridic easy squeeze opportunity. The fact that he's not slowing down is ok news though because he's helping you to achieve your HU objective by pressing the shorties. It's a good idea to work with the CL to squeeze them both out the game rather than going after him at this point I think.

I'm not folding A-K.

[ThatsSoMinusEV]

Entering hands into wiz and all that is fine, if you are playing to move up the ladder, (which i hope your not)

With <22bb's its really bad to be raise/folding so I'm basically opening 77+, ATs+, KQo+, because the big stack 3bet shoves any pair, most aces and a ton of K/9+ hands plus the odd suited connector. Maybe even wider because he probably has a lot of FE due to the other stacks

Folding AK is not even nitty it's just bad poker, we cannot play for third or second guys esp at FT. 99+AQ+ is close but you don't think he 3bet shoves A7s here? I do.

Alos it's 4-handed at a final table opening just TT+ in which is essentially the cutoff is supernitty. Tbh UTG doesn't exist 4-handed

Also, try and get a chop before anything. Demand $290 at the minimum + more or less depending on your skill level at the table

[Longy]

Entering hands into wiz and all that is fine, if you are playing to move up the ladder, (which i hope your not)

With <22bb's its really bad to be raise/folding so I'm basically opening 77+, ATs+, KQo+, because the big stack 3bet shoves any pair, most aces and a ton of K/9+ hands plus the odd suited connector. Maybe even wider because he probably has a lot of FE due to the other stacks

Folding AK is not even nitty it's just bad poker, we cannot play for third or second guys esp at FT. 99+AQ+ is close but you don't think he 3bet shoves A7s here? I do.

Alos it's 4-handed at a final table opening just TT+ in which is essentially the cutoff is supernitty. Tbh UTG doesn't exist 4-handed

Also, try and get a chop before anything. Demand $290 at the minimum + more or less depending on your skill level at the table

Sngwiz simply calculates what calling ranges makes us money long term (+ev), that is all we should be concentrating on here. If this is laddering or being super nitty, i could not care less. I play poker to make money, call me what you like.

[TheChipPrince]

Entering hands into wiz and all that is fine, if you are playing to move up the ladder, (which i hope your not)

With <22bb's its really bad to be raise/folding so I'm basically opening 77+, ATs+, KQo+, because the big stack 3bet shoves any pair, most aces and a ton of K/9+ hands plus the odd suited connector. Maybe even wider because he probably has a lot of FE due to the other stacks

Folding AK is not even nitty it's just bad poker, we cannot play for third or second guys esp at FT. 99+AQ+ is close but you don't think he 3bet shoves A7s here? I do.

Alos it's 4-handed at a final table opening just TT+ in which is essentially the cutoff is supernitty. Tbh UTG doesn't exist 4-handed

Also, try and get a chop before anything. Demand $290 at the minimum + more or less depending on your skill level at the table

Sngwiz simply calculates what calling ranges makes us money long term (+ev), that is all we should be concentrating on here. If this is laddering or being super nitty, i could not care less. I play poker to make money, call me what you like.

Tw*t....

[ThatsSoMinusEV]

lmao. i play to win, that works out +$EV not +cEV. I try and make money as well, but you do that in MTTs by getting chips.

And good post chipking or w/e your name was forgot

[thetank]

Welcome to the forum ThatsSoMinusEV, good to see you posting about a few hands here and there.  


I think you have it wrong about SnGWiz though. We are talking about winning +$EV. That's what it's for.

Wiz takes into account how much 1st is worth. If 1st was worth 90% of the prize pool, we'd get a completely different answer than TT+ 



longy could win more tournaments and make less money if he wanted to, he doesn't. He plays poker for $$$
It is just as applicable in this situation as it is a final table and I've put the relative payouts into Wiz for what we get for 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 1st.

[ThatsSoMinusEV]

longy could win more tournaments and make less money if he wanted to, he doesn't. He plays poker for $$$

Thats prob why we differ. I play to win tournaments at the final table and makes plays based on +cEV rather than +$EV, because maybe playing to win is +$EV in itself

[thetank]

It's not, but go-on yerself son

[thetank]

I suppose you could attach some added value to first place in live comps such as increasing your profile, reputation etc.
There's also something to be said for the psychological factor of winning a comp being adding a little EV too.


There's nothing wrong with playing for +cEV and maximizing your chance of winning over long term profit if that's how you want to play the game. It's uncommon though.