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Author Topic: Two mistakes- the first of many  (Read 2163 times)
easypickings
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« on: October 12, 2008, 11:22:23 PM »

Thougt I'd post these hands on here, as they were interesting ones, and also slightly shamelss plug for my blog- on www.32redpokerblog.com- where I'll be listing my 50 worst mistakes, as they happen!


1) Rendezvous Casino Brighton, £500 Freezeout, 11th October 2008.

I had a pretty tough table given that the field looked quite weak, and one of the toughest opponents at the table was Karl Mahrenlohz. I have never been quite able to work out his game, but it is obviously strong. He is a highly rated player, and I even wonder whether he is underrated. It was actually because of his strength, and because he is such a clear thinking player, that I chose him to pull a bluff on him. If someone is exploitable, it does not necessarily mean that they are weak. In this case, it was quite the opposite reason that I chose to pull a play that, to a thinking player, should look really strong, and make it very difficult to call without a super-strong hand. And the mistake? I’m gutted to say it, but I wimped out on the river, and didn’t make the follow through bet.

Blinds were 150/300, and Karl raised to 700 on the CO, and I defended the BB with Q9 offsuit. The great structure meant we were both very deep, with 80BB stacks. The flop came Qx4s3s, giving me the top pair. Karl bet 900, I called, and we saw a blank 5 on the turn. Karl bet 1,200, which was another fairly small bet. I was fairly sure that these smallish bets were for pot control reasons, and that his range was fairly wide. It did seem to suggest, however, that he probably did not have a super-strong hand like a set, as he might try to inflate the pot in that case.

It seeemed a perfect spot to try a rather unsusal move- of turning top pair into a bluff. It seems a fairly dubious move, but the logic behind it is often misunderstood. Many people would say, “but he could have nothing, or could be behind you with JJ or something,” and would argue that by trying to get him to pass hands that can beat our top pair, we are bluffing a very narrow range of hands. This is correct, but it is important to understand, that if I do have him beat, it is a void scenario. Those hands will pass to my river bet, but I would beat them anyway (and I think it is very unliekly he will 3-barrel air).

It is crucially important when you decide to bluff that you pinpoint the kind of hands you are trying to make pass. Here the hands were specifically AQ, KQ, QJ, aces and kings. It may seem like a pretty dubious bluff, but I thought I had the right type of player, and the right situation to worry him enough to make him pass. The plan was to raise to check-raise the turn to 3,200, and then to fire a big bluff on the river. A good, thinking player would reconstruct this pattern, along with my flop call, and find it very difficult to pull out a call.

The check-raise to 3,200 was called, the river a board-pairing 4, and somehow I found myself checking. Karl actually fired out a 4,000 bet, and I made what I am 95% sure was the right pass. (even some missed draws have showdown value, and there is no way he is value betting a weaker hand).

The really disappointing thing about the hand is not so much the failed bluff on the turn, but simply that I failed to follow through the plan I had made in my mind. Poker is a game where you just have to trust your instincts, so it really is disappointing to report that I managed to second guess myself into changing my plan. It’s difficult to say what it was, but I would say was a big part due to feeling tired on the day, and to second-guessing the logic of the bluff. It obviously was not the best river card to bluff (a J, ten, 7 or 6 would have been) but was definitely good enough that I should have continued my plan.

2) Rendezvous Casino Brighton, £500 Freezeout, Saturday 11th October

A new table now, and an opponent who was much less experienced. I was playing a stack of 25,000 and raised to 1,200 with KsQx. The small blind called, and seemed a fairly weak, cally-type player. The flop came Q93, all spades, giving me top pair and the 2nd nut flush draw. My opponent checked unusually quickly; I knew that this meant something, it was just difficult to say what.

However, it probably meant that he was at either end of the range, adn had either flopped nothing, or flopped a flush. This probably means that my rather large bet of 2,500 was probably wrong. This is an importnat type of hand. The extra insurance of the second nut draw means that I can make what I will call a balance play of a flop check- it disguises my hand, and balances both its reasonable strength, and the fact my opponent may have a really big hand. It is actually more suitable if you think your opponent may have a set, as this is the exact hand that he is going to check-raise you big with. My hand was strong in some ways, but was definitely not a spot where I would be happy to get it all in on the flop.

So, that was the first mistake, and now I’ll tell you that my opponent had in fact flopped  a flush, holding J10 of spades. He let me off lightly, echoing my mistake with a flat-call. I  think he has to try to get it in here; any hand that he can trap into betting when he checks on the turn will have to give him action on the flop, so I think this is a really bad trap.

The turn was the 6 of spades, giving me the lead. I decided to check behind; not knowing what his hand was, this is the default play. It both encourages him to bluff the river, and also will help by giving me far less credit when I value bet the end.

The river was a complete blank, and my opponent fired out 3,500 into the 8,800 pot. I made what would be normally a quick, default call (too thin to pass, but raising is too thin for value, and could lead me to getting re-rasie bluffed)and saw that he had flopped the jack high flush.

And the mistake? I acted far too quickly on the end. I really should not have made the defualt move, without thinking about the type of opponent.  I could be sure that he would not re-raise as a bluff, and so only needed to judge whether it would more likely he had a lower flush and would pay me off, or had the ace-high flush. If he did have a lower flush, I think he probably would have made the mistake of calling, particuarly after the frustration of flopping it and seeing it semi-counterfeited. In fact, there is a case for making a big raise; I could have got even of 9,000 more from a suspicious player, and so maybe missed big value.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 11:27:43 PM by easypickings » Logged
AlexMartin
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 04:31:49 AM »

interesting hands for sure. hand one, jam river and karl folds. ur repping a narrow range but doesnt seem like u 2 have much history. unlike u to bottle it stu.

hand 2, i like, think its pretty super standard. really can never see him hero calling you with worse here.
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easypickings
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 12:10:33 PM »

Hey Alex, are you going to Thanet this week?

Yeah, I'm really gutted about hand one. Even if it may not have worked, it's disgusting to bottle it!

Hand 1- I think you're right. Unless he has cleverly played the kind of big hand he is unlikely to have (a straight, or flopped a set), I think it would be an almost impossible call. The worry against a lesser player is that they may pull out a frustrated call with a hand like AQ or kings, but Karl is not going to make any call without alot of careful thought here. Given that, I think it would be impossible to make the call without history, maybe even with aces?

Hand 2- You really don't think a weak player can make the call with a low flush? The action as welll gives me a better spot, as my check on the turn could disguise my hand. I guess that reviewing the action isn't anywhere near as relevant against a weak player as their thinking is so confused anyway, but I think I have a great chance here. The bet-check-bet play I think is a great way of making a weak player suspicious and getting a call, and I think it counts for alot that he has flopped a flush and then seen his hand partly counterfieted- the frustration of this can make a bad player call, even if they 'know' they are beaten.
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PaulSykes
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 02:56:29 PM »

No comment on the hand really, but I would like to say that your post was very well written.
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Wouldnt mind some luck every now and again against fish please Smiley
AlexMartin
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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 06:11:23 PM »

hand two is goes bet raise on river, hes not gonna call you when the primary draw got there with the third nuts and that river action imo. yeah im probs going thanet courtesy of the flushy/shallow staking stable.
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action man
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 04:11:07 PM »

hand 2 i probably make it 9k and pass to a shove, this is a spot that people get frustrated in, and "have to see it" i think its far too risky for him to shove here without the Ace.

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Dubai
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« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2008, 01:58:17 AM »

Fold pre in hand 1, playing hands oop against what you consider to be the best player at the table is simply retarded, if you had 80bb in an online cash game against a "strong" opponent you click fold without blinking. You also arent repping nearly as much as you think on the turn as im sure Qx hands arent in your value raising range which means its massively polarised to air/monsters/1 pair hands turned into a bluff. And we all know no-one ever flops a set, so gl repping one, the turn looks like a good check raising card but if he breaks it down youre hand is never gonna have improved unless you now have a pair and OESD, which is what you are repping really. Ie trying to turn a hand with 13 outs into a bluff, which is semi fine against non thinking retards
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 02:18:25 AM by Dubai » Logged
MC
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« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2008, 11:54:22 AM »

Hey Stu,

You know hand one doesn't seem that bad to me. When playing heads-ups, I will often bluff-raise a player when I can tell they have second pair or something...but when bottom pair pairs the turn or something, I give it up as I know they aren't folding. I realise that's a different situation, but the same theory. If you are 95% certain your fold to his bet was correct on the river, then shutting down wasn't necessarily wrong. You have a small amount of show-down value if he checks behind. I think he's calling you with an overpair more often than you think. What can you feasibly have here? Not a lot that you would defend with, call a flop bet with, that has an overpair or AQ beat. A better card on the river and at least you might have more to represent and follow through with.

Hand two...Think you played it okay. Check behind on the flop might have been good. His mega quick check which indicated strength could easily have involved the Ace of spades so check on turn is fine. Raising the river is risky so, just perhaps should have been more careful on the flop with his tell. But other than that...
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2008, 03:16:54 AM »

Hand 1 - Karl never folds. Q8 ftw

Hand 2 - sry haven't read Sad

See you in Blackpool Smiley

Edit - oh btw I seem to remember I was reading your article on check-raise (semi) bluffing the turn at the time in one of the magazines they had lying around. Do you remember I showed you the picture with the caption Stuart the Bluffer?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 03:28:10 AM by Dry em » Logged

AlexMartin
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2008, 12:37:10 PM »

Hand 1 - Karl never folds. Q8 ftw

Hand 2 - sry haven't read Sad

See you in Blackpool Smiley

Edit - oh btw I seem to remember I was reading your article on check-raise (semi) bluffing the turn at the time in one of the magazines they had lying around. Do you remember I showed you the picture with the caption Stuart the Bluffer?

anit-outplay measure Smiley
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easypickings
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2008, 12:03:45 AM »

You're right Karl, that was the other pretty interesting element to the hand.Quite sick really, either just before or at the time,  you were reading the article with "Stuart the Bluffer," all about check-raising on the turn. Damn magazines; just going to write the next one on how I only ever bet with the nuts, and pass round copies beforehand!

See you in Blackpool.
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