Bad Fold?

[Rod]

Hi

This is a hand from Pokerstars that I played this morning and on reviewing it I think I probably misplayed it. I have been dealt QQ in the BB and UTG+2 makes a min raise and the a mid position player makes another min raise and then there is a cold call. Action to me and there is $4.75 in the pot. I raise it to $6 the orginal raiser then reraises again and it folds to me. At this point I think he probably has AA, KK or AK (and AK is fairly unlikey) I therefore fold it. Looking back at the hand though, even if he has AA or KK I do have the odds to call to make a set (taking his stack into account) should I call here and try to make a set (he only has $8 left behind) or should I just shove it all-in?

Seat 1: MAnuciaos ($13.20 in chips)
Seat 2: glaubermalu ($17.30 in chips)
Seat 3: shamanfe ($27.10 in chips)
Seat 4: JHL54 ($63.10 in chips)
Seat 5: AAroddersAA ($113.50 in chips)
Seat 6: STEALurM0NEY ($30.10 in chips)
Seat 7: 0madis0 ($48 in chips)
Seat 8: rogergruber ($19.90 in chips)
Seat 9: raczek18 ($9.90 in chips)
JHL54: posts small blind $0.25
AAroddersAA: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AAroddersAA [ ]
STEALurM0NEY: folds
0madis0: folds
rogergruber: raises $0.50 to $1.00
raczek18: folds
MAnuciaos: raises $0.50 to $1.50
glaubermalu: calls $1.50
shamanfe: folds
JHL54: folds
AAroddersAA: raises $4.50 to $6
rogergruber: raises $4.50 to $9.50
MAnuciaos: folds
glaubermalu: folds
AAroddersAA: folds
Uncalled bet ($4.50) returned to rogergruber
rogergruber collected $15.20 from pot
rogergruber: doesn't show hand

[bolt pp]

WOW


SHOVE!!!

[byronkincaid]

this time next year rodney, you won't be a millionaire if you keep on folding QQ to a MFing shortstack in a rererererereraised pot

[GreekStein]

Probably the right fold and you arent getting a price to setmine if u really think he has AA or KK, which is what he's repping.

I just find it rediculously hard not to set these players in because of the way they overvalue 99-JJ and generally just play dumb at these limits. Part of it is my own lack of disciplne though. I think he probably just moves AK in pre flop too.

[Rod]

this time next year rodney, you won't be a millionaire if you keep on folding QQ to a MFing shortstack in a rererererereraised pot

*lol* Probably very true, although I always liked three wheeled vans. It was certainly not the best fold I have ever made. Is it really that easy, is QQ a hand where if you get the chance you should push all-in. Or is it just against short stacks who do definately sometimes over value smaller pairs.

[MC]

He has $14 more than your original bet and you have like $108 behind. Risking 15% of your stack here with QQ is non-optional.

66+, AQ+ this is a standard shove against a short stack...

[Rod]

He has $14 more than your original bet and you have like $108 behind. Risking 15% of your stack here with QQ is non-optional.

66+, AQ+ this is a standard shove against a short stack...

OK, I get that folding the QQ was bad but 66+ and AQ? Mind if I ask why - are we really getting ti in here with the likes of 66 and AQ? Is it a simple case of this range beats a short stacks range so a shove is +EV. Is the size of my stack really that important in this situation. It doesn't matter if I have $20 or $100 if I have more than him does it? In a tournament it would but this is a cash game. If shoving is +EV (and I believe you are correct and that is what I should have done here) then I should do it whatever my stack size is.

[GreekStein]

He has $14 more than your original bet and you have like $108 behind. Risking 15% of your stack here with QQ is non-optional.

66+, AQ+ this is a standard shove against a short stack...

OK, I get that folding the QQ was bad but 66+ and AQ? Mind if I ask why - are we really getting ti in here with the likes of 66 and AQ? Is it a simple case of this range beats a short stacks range so a shove is +EV. Is the size of my stack really that important in this situation. It doesn't matter if I have $20 or $100 if I have more than him does it? In a tournament it would but this is a cash game. If shoving is +EV (and I believe you are correct and that is what I should have done here) then I should do it whatever my stack size is.

I dont agree with the first statement. I'm certainly not getting 66 type hands in here at all.

As I said earlier I think in this instance you may have made the right fold because his action looks like AA or KK. I know when I used to play these stakes that players seemed to loooove minraising in any position against any action with AA or KK. I also said that I dont pass here; because overall shoving with QQ is +EV and there are a lot of hands like AQ 1010 JJ 99 AK etc that they are happy to get it in with.

Don't think shoving hands like 66 77 88 is gonna be a long term profitable play.

[byronkincaid]

this time next year rodney, you won't be a millionaire if you keep on folding QQ to a MFing shortstack in a rererererereraised pot

*lol* Probably very true, although I always liked three wheeled vans. It was certainly not the best fold I have ever made. Is it really that easy, is QQ a hand where if you get the chance you should push all-in. Or is it just against short stacks who do definately sometimes over value smaller pairs.

unfortunately i have become a bit of a plonker in that i just use my HUD stats to make this sort of decision. if someone is a 7/2 with a 3 bets stat of 1%, it's very different to a 17/15 10%. I have no idea how i used to play before HUDs came out. I use holdemmanager, it's a bit of a pain to set up but well worth the effort.

[GreekStein]

Game #8415273104: Hold'em NL (£0.25/£0.50) - 2008/11/23 - 13:13:42 (UK)
Table "Runorno" Seat 6 is the button.
Seat 2: Yorgpaps (£76.82 in chips)
Seat 3: Larsolsen (£19.70 in chips)
Seat 4: Gezahhh sits out
Seat 5: Trikky sits out
Seat 6: Kev241128 (£15.59 in chips)
Yorgpaps: posts small blind £0.25
Larsolsen: posts big blind £0.50
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Yorgpaps [ ]
Kev241128: raises to £1
Yorgpaps: raises to £3.50
Larsolsen: folds
Kev241128: raises to £6
Yorgpaps: calls £2.50
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
Yorgpaps: bets £70.82 and is all-in
Kev241128: is all-in £9.59
Returned uncalled bets £61.23 to Yorgpaps
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
Yorgpaps: shows [ ] (Two Pairs, Jacks and Nines, Seven high)
Kev241128: shows [ ] (Two Pairs, Tens and Nines, Seven high)
Yorgpaps collected £30.10 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot £31.68 Main pot £30.10 Rake £1.58
Board [ ]
Seat 2: Yorgpaps (small blind) showed [ ] and won (£30.10) with Two Pairs, Jacks and Nines, Seven high
Seat 3: Larsolsen (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Kev241128 (button) showed [ ] and lost with Two Pairs, Tens and Nines, Seven high

An example from my old man's account of how they overvalue hands. Still not getting 66-99 or AQAJ type hands in here

[MC]

He has $14 more than your original bet and you have like $108 behind. Risking 15% of your stack here with QQ is non-optional.

66+, AQ+ this is a standard shove against a short stack...

OK, I get that folding the QQ was bad but 66+ and AQ? Mind if I ask why - are we really getting ti in here with the likes of 66 and AQ? Is it a simple case of this range beats a short stacks range so a shove is +EV. Is the size of my stack really that important in this situation. It doesn't matter if I have $20 or $100 if I have more than him does it? In a tournament it would but this is a cash game. If shoving is +EV (and I believe you are correct and that is what I should have done here) then I should do it whatever my stack size is.

I'm just going with the maths here dude...

It's $13.90 more to win a pot of $26.15 so you're getting like 1.9 to 1. So you need to be like 35%. I'd argue he has two overs here often enough to justify going as low as 66. Perhaps that's a little low, but I think 88 has value.

Ok I just PokerStoved this.

I reckon I'm about right. Putting him on a range of AJs+, AQo+, 77+ and KQs, with a pair of sixes you have 34.7% equity...dot on in relation to the pot odds. But perhaps Greek is right...maybe best to have at least 88.

With 88 you have 35.6% equity if his range is as tight as 99+, AKs, AQs, AKo and AQo

[Moskvich]

I reckon I'm about right. Putting him on a range of AJs+, AQo+, 77+ and KQs, with a pair of sixes you have 34.7% equity...dot on in relation to the pot odds. But perhaps Greek is right...maybe best to have at least 88.

With 88 you have 35.6% equity if his range is as tight as 99+, AKs, AQs, AKo and AQo

But you need to weight the elements of his range, and then the numbers don't work. He's 5-betting here, albeit in a weird pot. It could be 99/TT/AQ, but much less often than it is AA/KK. AK probably shoves more often than it min-reraises. I'd get the QQ in here but wouldn't be too excited about it - I think it's unlikely that you've got more than about 40% equity against his range.

The 66+ AQ+ range for getting it in against a short stack is all very well, but surely it partly depends on him a) playing like a 'proper' short-stack and b) actually being a proper short-stack - which he isn't here as he has 40bbs at the start of the hand.

AAroddersAA: raises $4.50 to $6
rogergruber: raises $4.50 to $9.50

Problem with the site's adding-up software?

[MC]

I reckon I'm about right. Putting him on a range of AJs+, AQo+, 77+ and KQs, with a pair of sixes you have 34.7% equity...dot on in relation to the pot odds. But perhaps Greek is right...maybe best to have at least 88.

With 88 you have 35.6% equity if his range is as tight as 99+, AKs, AQs, AKo and AQo

But you need to weight the elements of his range, and then the numbers don't work. He's 5-betting here, albeit in a weird pot. It could be 99/TT/AQ, but much less often than it is AA/KK. AK probably shoves more often than it min-reraises. I'd get the QQ in here but wouldn't be too excited about it - I think it's unlikely that you've got more than about 40% equity against his range.

The 66+ AQ+ range for getting it in against a short stack is all very well, but surely it partly depends on him a) playing like a 'proper' short-stack and b) actually being a proper short-stack - which he isn't here as he has 40bbs at the start of the hand.

Fair point, tbh I missed that it was a 5-bet pot, all those min-raises are rather weird. Just cos he's min raised twice though doesn't mean a whole lot at 25p/50p

[paulhouk03]

if i was u i would push here u have 2buyins
and he is a half stack
and ppl do over value small pp in small stakes
i wouldnt be too happy shoving it but i believe its just too big of a hand to lay down to a half stack. i dont think i will lay aq+, jj+ to any shorty in  small stakes cash