who the f*** were they cross with?

[kinboshi]

i have been on some amazing hols with my parents all over the world. They both worked hard to  give me and my brother what they didnt have when they grew up is that so bad.

exactly

have you got any kids boldie?

Does it matter?  I have an opinion on Strictly Come Dancing, but I can't foxtrot and don't own a spangly shirt.

Let's not let the debate descend into an argumentum ad hominem.  We all know boldie is the German Victor Meldrew, but he's allowed his opinion as much as anyone else.

dont lie

You borrowed it ages ago, and I'd like it back. Don't put it in the washing machine though remember - dry clean only.  Otherwise the sequins come off.

[Royal Flush]

FWIW i have been on a similar holiday.

When me and my bro were very young we went on the then day trip to Lapland on Concorde.

Boldie i remember it and it was quality!

Even if the flight out was delayed for hours so we only got 1/2 the time there we were supposed too (there were no women screaming and crying over it though)

[boldie]

i have been on some amazing hols with my parents all over the world. They both worked hard to  give me and my brother what they didnt have when they grew up is that so bad.

exactly

have you got any kids boldie?

I fail to see the relevance, I really do.

I have no problem with parents working hard to give the kids something they never had themselves. I won't even argue that something like this won't be cool for the kids who still believe in Santa (I take it they are all younger than 7?). I don't believe that you need to spend thousands of pounds on taking your kids on holiday, or buyign them laptops, PS£s and all that for christmas.

 What I have a problem with is that people spend 2k on Christmas (while at the same time moaning about the cost of living, fuel prices and their house being worthless) and that when the airline says "Listen we can't fly as it's unsafe to be in a big metal box 30k feet in the air in these weather conditions and we don't want you or your kids to die" that parents complain about it.

If you can afford to take your kids on holidays like this, by no means do. I am just surprised that everyone seems to have a mountain of debt but is able to spend thousands of pounds on Christmas every year.

[ScottMGee]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

[tikay]

FWIW i have been on a similar holiday.

When me and my bro were very young we went on the then day trip to Lapland on Concorde.

Boldie i remember it and it was quality!

Even if the flight out was delayed for hours so we only got 1/2 the time there we were supposed too (there were no women screaming and crying over it though)

It just so happens that someone closely connected with a well-known blonde organises these Lapland Holidays, as a business. Very successful it is, too.

[kinboshi]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

[bolt pp]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

not at all,

It's a different level thing when you're talking about children, you cant equate it to other things that you have an opinion on but havent directly experienced.

[kinboshi]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

not at all,

It's a different level thing when you're talking about children, you cant equate it to other things that you have an opinion on but havent directly experienced.

But I was a child, I have nieces, I have friends with children.  Does that not give me any insight at all on a subject related to children?  I'm not saying I'm an expert, but there are a lot of parents who aren't experts either.

[bolt pp]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

not at all,

It's a different level thing when you're talking about children, you cant equate it to other things that you have an opinion on but havent directly experienced.

But I was a child, I have nieces, I have friends with children.  Does that not give me any insight at all on a subject related to children?  I'm not saying I'm an expert, but there are a lot of parents who aren't experts either.

It gives you an insight but it's still so much different from having nieces etc, things you think are correct in theory go out out the window when you're a parent.

I think when you are solely responsible for the life of another person who you love immeasurably you may not be an expert parent but you do see things differently.

[tikay]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

not at all,

It's a different level thing when you're talking about children, you cant equate it to other things that you have an opinion on but havent directly experienced.

But I was a child, I have nieces, I have friends with children.  Does that not give me any insight at all on a subject related to children?  I'm not saying I'm an expert, but there are a lot of parents who aren't experts either.

It gives you an insight but it's still so much different from having nieces etc, things you think are correct in theory go out out the window when you're a parent.

I think when you are solely responsible for the life of another person who you love immeasurably you may not be an expert parent but you do see things differently.

Absolutely. But, maybe, possibly, just perhaps, those rose-coloured glasses mean they don't always make objective - & correct - deisions.......

I should add I have no view either way on those sending their kids to Lapland at Xmas. Well, I have, but I'm keeping schtum.

[Ginger]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

not at all,

It's a different level thing when you're talking about children, you cant equate it to other things that you have an opinion on but havent directly experienced.

But I was a child, I have nieces, I have friends with children.  Does that not give me any insight at all on a subject related to children?  I'm not saying I'm an expert, but there are a lot of parents who aren't experts either.

It gives you an insight but it's still so much different from having nieces etc, things you think are correct in theory go out out the window when you're a parent.

I think when you are solely responsible for the life of another person who you love immeasurably you may not be an expert parent but you do see things differently.

Absolutely. But, maybe, possibly, just perhaps, those rose-coloured glasses mean they don't always make objective - & correct - deisions.......

I think you have this the wrong way round Tony. It's when you have children, that the rose tinted glasses come off.

[tikay]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

So you can't have an opinion on something unless you've done it/have it/are it?

not at all,

It's a different level thing when you're talking about children, you cant equate it to other things that you have an opinion on but havent directly experienced.

But I was a child, I have nieces, I have friends with children.  Does that not give me any insight at all on a subject related to children?  I'm not saying I'm an expert, but there are a lot of parents who aren't experts either.

It gives you an insight but it's still so much different from having nieces etc, things you think are correct in theory go out out the window when you're a parent.

I think when you are solely responsible for the life of another person who you love immeasurably you may not be an expert parent but you do see things differently.

Absolutely. But, maybe, possibly, just perhaps, those rose-coloured glasses mean they don't always make objective - & correct - deisions.......

I think you have this the wrong way round Tony. It's when you have children, that the rose tinted glasses come off.

Arguably, yes. I shall never know.

By the way, I have 7 God-Children, & until they grew up, I visited every single one of them, every Christmas morning. I would dress up in a full Santa outfit, & I had a sack of Pressies for each child. I would leave home at 0530, drive to Sheffield, then Leicester, then Burton-on-Trent, then Derby, & be back home by 3pm.

I gave up when they got older, & several asked "hey, why does Santa drive a Mercedes?".

It has to be said, one does look (& feel) rather daft, & attract all sorts of weird looks, driving a Merc when dressed up in the full Santa gear.

[boldie]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

You're probably right...I don't care about kids really...and if I have my own I will probably think they are the bees knees...

Having said that; The day when I spend a few grand on Christmas for my kids is the day they can lock me up.

This is not about "you haven't had kids, so you don't know" This is about "WTF are you thinking spending thousands of pounds on a 7 YO for Christmas?!?!" ( and then moaning a few years later when you have to pay £3k for their education as "the government should pay that"..GTFO)

I am also with Kin on the whole "But you don't have kids, so you don't understand"...that argument really doesn't make an awful lot of sense. We all know people with kids, I am quite sure I used to be one myself at some stage.
If I see someone buy a 9YO a laptop (when the kid quite clearly isn't Dougie Howser M.D. and doesn't have a job), or a 6YO a PS3 for £300, or drag a 4YO half way across the world to take them to an overhyped amusement park at a cost of a few k (especially when you're up to your eyes in mortgages, car loans etc)...I believe you've quite possibly lost the plot.

[bolt pp]

Having children changes your entire outlook on life!

Until you have kids you will never understand.

Before I had kids my mates would tell me about there children and i was not really that bothered. As soon as I had my first, I was like WOW I GET IT!.

You're probably right...I don't care about kids really...and if I have my own I will probably think they are the bees knees...

Having said that; The day when I spend a few grand on Christmas for my kids is the day they can lock me up.

This is not about "you haven't had kids, so you don't know" This is about "WTF are you thinking spending thousands of pounds on a 7 YO for Christmas?!?!" ( and then moaning a few years later when you have to pay £3k for their education as "the government should pay that"..GTFO)

I am also with Kin on the whole "But you don't have kids, so you don't understand"...that argument really doesn't make an awful lot of sense. We all know people with kids, I am quite sure I used to be one myself at some stage.
If I see someone buy a 9YO a laptop (when the kid quite clearly isn't Dougie Howser M.D. and doesn't have a job), or a 6YO a PS3 for £300, or drag a 4YO half way across the world to take them to an overhyped amusement park at a cost of a few k (especially when you're up to your eyes in mortgages, car loans etc)...I believe you've quite possibly lost the plot.

boldie where is this argument coming from that EVERYONE is skint, pleading poverty and moaning about the economy?

what about if you are a two income familly that are doing well  through a time of financial instability, is it not o.k to spend thousands at christmas then for the kids?

I dont think the amount of people you suggest are being so contradictory in their approach to financial managment of christmas.

Personally even if i was struggling and i had kids i'd absoloutly love to spend thousands on them for christmas, some of my best memories as a kid are some great familly christmas's we had, and yes at times there was a lot of money spent on them, the moneys gone now and i had no comprehension of what it meant to spend money like that as a kid but the memories of some fantastc family christamas's are lasting and that was probably the point.

[byronkincaid]

so people without kids are saying "i don't get it"

and people with kids are saying "before i had kids i didn't get it"

what's the argument?