Tony G response

[AdamM]

point 1, many poor players play AK, AQ and AJ the same way and treat them as if they are more or less the same strength. If there's been a raise before you and you have AQ you are even money or a mile behind, if you have AK unless the raiser has AA or KK then you are even money or ahead. AQ is certainly not a re-raising hand (theoretically). raise and re raise with it but appreciate you're bluffing.

point 2, Ariston is taking a shot for a small portion of his stack with what is certain to be two live cards. As he's sure his opponent doent have a pair he's likely to be 70/30 against. I personally wouldnt do it because thats only 5% better than if I had a dominated Ace. the other interesting affect it might have on the table is that even if he loses the hand people will probably adjust their game because of what they've seen. tight players might loosen up because they've seen him call with junk and bluffers might tighten up a bit because they won't think they can make him pass.

[Heid]

Nicely explained Adam!

(even I understood it!)

[The Nomad]

Hello, it seems to me that good manners in the game have gone out of the window.The behaviour of several well known players is I am afraid a sign of the times ,and exposure on TV. This is understandable,just go watch an under 10s football match,spitting swearing abusing the ref thats the parents the kid are far worse.they get it of the TV. The game has developed in the main due to tournament poker on TV, this is a bit like student politics savage but it will not matter and after college you move on.OK nowadays the prizes are huge and there is a lot of stress involved,however the secure player can find many ways to retaliate to these antics. This practise of gloating after destroying someone because that is what it is can only be stopped by example of the top players,the days have gone when you risked your life by making a facetious remark about an opponent,that would boost the ratings can you imagine brains on the baise it would go straight to no 1 bast poker movies of all time.I suppose its the Macenroe theory it makes the game lively,if thats the way the TVwants it ,it will be hard to stop .I have felt a drift in some oppinions lately that some players feel the are being exploited,an the game is being tampered with,detrimentallyto the players wellbeing.I hope this groundswell continues TVs getting something for nothing .     back to the origin of this thread, 8pages that is incredible all about one person and some ill thought out comments.and then on and on.I am amazed that people can feel so strongly about what is only a facet of human nature.   Poker and gambling in general bring out the best and worst in people after 32 years owning working and playing in some of the best and worst of these establishments all over the world,I have seen some terrible examples.people react in differentways ,i remember a chinese guy once  jumping on the roulette table and attacking the wheel with the bollard that was used to separate the tables,an Albanian who after losing his money on the poker table,proceeded to destroy it with a large axe.The list is endless.OK the albanian was a nasty piece of work,but the chinaman was as polite and nice as could be but this time he just flipped,afterwards he was in tears with remorse.So lets think about what brings this behaviour on,is it because the player gets carried away in the excitement,or is the player in control,they say its a calculated ploy,In tonys case Iwas wittnessto what was probably his 1st ill call it going over the edge,it happened when he played Kirril heads up and it took someone of very large stature in the game to calm him down.It only took a sentence,to set him of ,  So im not totally convinced its a preplanned ploy,Im moving more towards its a defensive reaction.So with the slagging off of an opponent who has been 3outed.I remember reading somewhere there were opponents who said they were going to beat you,told u what they had ,and then beat u ,it was either schoonmaker  or chiaffone,but they said it was an american trait how wrong they were. Normally when i get so lucky to hit a three outer im looking down at my chips with embarrasment,So what am i thinking ,well there but for the grace of God go I for starters,Carefull u were lucky that time ,Screw up like that again and your out , Time to press on ive got chips but dont get sloppy,pick your shots and pick the targets .the next hand is in front of you,so whats the mouth doing if hes hurling abuse at the unfortunate opponent,not preparing to go forward with the nexthand asthey say prepare to fail if u fail to prepare  .So ive come to the conclusionnot only are they obnoxious but are also putting forward an example of stupidity strange that I should be against it the more stupid players are the more I win,perverse.Antics during the game different kettle of fish watch Surinder Sunar enough said .           How are your ladbrokes shares doing this week TK    

[suzanne]

Point 1, I shall definatly be more cautious with AQ in future.... now I know where im going wrong  

Point 2, I see what you mean about the effect it will have on the table which makes it a bit more understandable.

Thanks Adam

[Nem]

Suzanne,

Ariston's call with 10-4o is a terrible play, as he said in his article " It was a tilt call". All the positives of table image etc what AdamM has just mentioned are totally outweighed by how bad a call it was.

[AdamM]

well I wasn't going to say that but...

[suzanne]

"I claimed this was down to me tilting at passing kings but it was a mathematical decision. If he did have a big ace I was getting the right pot odds to make the call (give or take a couple of %) and I had the chance to knock out another player. If you add to this to the fact that I could afford to lose the 4,800 and also the fact that nobody would mess around on my BB without having a hand it was a very well thought out call. He won the hand and doubled up and nobody touched my blind for the rest of the day"

He is saying it was a mathematical decision. I am still a learner and dont know how to work out % but how can this hand be "getting the right pot odds"

[ariston]

Ok that wasn't the article that was meant to be read guys but here goes. The blinds were 800,400 with a running 50 (if memory serves me right- it was a year ago) and that put 1700 in the pot before his allin raise of 4800. I was calling 4800 to win 7300. This meant I was getting the worst of it if he turned over a high pair or two overcards but there is also the chance he could have a small pair or a small rag ace were I could be around a 60/40 shot. I played good poker in that tournament and that was the first article I had ever written but I can assure you it wasn't a tilt call and it was a very well thought out call. My blind was not attacked for the next few levels by anyone who didn't show me aces or kings and I could afford to lose the 4800 to try and take out a shortstack. This is one of my stranger theories and one I very rarely use but in this situation I stand by the play. Anyone who wants to read any of my other diaries or theory articles pm me and I will send you the link (they are all brutally honest and I openly admit when I do cock up or make bad plays). Next time any of you are sat in a $5000/$10k main event choking and waiting for aces/kings remember one thing- the worlds best players (of which I am certainly not) do not need big hands to win tournaments. I have seen players like gus hansen first hand making similar calls and it is known as sherrifing- noboby get out of line on my blind or you are risking elimination. When they do it is a mathmatical decision, when I do it it is a terrible play (In my BPO heat I called from the BB with 92off to a SB raise- roy the boy said it was the worst call he had ever seen. The day after Greg Raymer ran the same play calling a raise with 37off and roy the boy said that is the difference between great players and the rest of us; they got the balls to call to take the pot away on the flop).

[AndrewT]

Ariston is right, the main power of a play like this is that you are saying to the table "If you go all-in on my BB I am liable to call you with anything - therefore if you attack my blind your hand has got to hold up'. This takes away much of the power from the raising player - he is counting on the BB folding a large percentage of the time. Suddenly, things like AT or KJ don't look so hot if the BB is going to call with hands like Q3.

[suzanne]

Thanks for taking the time to answer guys, its certainly given me something to think about ie don't try to take Ariston's BB 

[Nem]

IMO, Ariston isn't right.

He is putting in 4800 to win 6500 NOT 7300.

He is 66% dog againts AKo, 70% dog against AKs

Againts JJ he 88% dog, againts 88 he is 70% dog.

Do you actually think that after seeing this play, a person holding A10 isn't going to raise his blind after seeing him call with 104o?

Like I said, IMO a terrible call.

[Bongo]

Do you actually think that after seeing this play, a person holding A10 isn't going to raise his blind after seeing him call with 104o?

I was going to take issue with that to. I think AT will still raise but something like 52o won't try and steal.

[tikay]

A very thought provoking, & good, post by Nomad.

Whilst my personal view is very much in line with Nomads - especially the embarasment I feel when I hit a 3 outer, which necessitates a certain amount of tact & decorum - "there but for the Grace of God" etc - I remain curious as to WHY someone like Tony G reacts as he does, from time to time. In his case, althouigh many disagree with me, I do NOT think it' the presence of TV Cameras. TV covered the entire Euro Championship Final at The Vic, which he won, & he behaved impeccably. And I can tell you - I promise this - that off the table, he is a complete gent.

I just tend to think it's an inability tio control his adrenelin surge. Adrenelin is a VERY strange, & enormously powerful, body chemical. He SHOULD be able to control it, but for whatever reason, he cannot or does not. A bit like alcholism - is it an illness/ailment, or just a lack of self-control or discipline? The guy who gave me the Grade One ruibdown last week, after outdrawing me, was something approaching a friend, with whom I've never had a cross word on or off the table. But the demon got inside him, & he - one of the only players on the circuit who is considerably older than me - just lost control, & went ballistic, whooping & hollering & banging the table repeatedly. I watched him get sucked out - & busted out - last night, & his body language said it all - he HATED it. A senior pro ascribed it to short memories & small brains, but I don't thnk that's right or fair - Tony is a supremly intelligent guy, & so are some other Premium Rub Down Merchants. A curious thing, which I am bound to say, the cause of which fascinates me.


My Ladbroke shares? Well, they are called Hilton these days, but I hate to even look. Last time I checked they were around £3.30. I think I paid £4 each for 4,000 of them in around 1985!

[doubleup]

point 1, many poor players play AK, AQ and AJ the same way and treat them as if they are more or less the same strength. If there's been a raise before you and you have AQ you are even money or a mile behind, if you have AK unless the raiser has AA or KK then you are even money or ahead. AQ is certainly not a re-raising hand (theoretically). raise and re raise with it but appreciate you're bluffing.

In the later stages of tournies, particularly against smaller stacks, I don't agree that you are either even money or a mile behind, quite often you will be a good favorite.

[ariston]

IMO, Ariston isn't right.

He is putting in 4800 to win 6500 NOT 7300.

He is 66% dog againts AKo, 70% dog against AKs

Againts JJ he 88% dog, againts 88 he is 70% dog.

Do you actually think that after seeing this play, a person holding A10 isn't going to raise his blind after seeing him call with 104o?

Like I said, IMO a terrible call.

Ok don't want to drag this one out but forgive me if I am wrong here...BB 800 + Sb 400 + 10running antes of 50 =1700 he raised all for 4800 more (total of 5600 when you take his 800 away) which means I am getting 7300 for my 4800. your maths is about correct on the hands I am up against but you are forgeting the table talk that goes with it about my BB. Anybody on that table knew not to take liberties after that and the table then belonged to me- nobody ran a resteal on me and I more than made the 4800 back inside 2 orbits. Poker is a game of oppinions but if I am in a £5 comp or a £10k comp I will still run my plays- I play my way and I have made some of my plays based on studying the worlds best/most aggresive players. I have also been lucky enough to play some of these players heads up and discover how they do what they do. Call it poor play if you wish but there is always method in my madness (and do not ever question me on maths because I will happily take you on about pure &applied maths/statistics/probabilities). Hopefully thats an end to this matter and I don't want to get into any further slanging matches.