raising kids/religion etc

[Dingdell]

I've just rung my Dad as I thought neither of my parents were religious but as a child they sent me to Sunday school in a little tin chapel in the village, even though neither of them attended chuch regularly.  

In fact it turns out that my Dad's childhood involved a lot of church going (as he was raised a Methodist) and when I was growing up they decided that as I was questioning and starting to make decisions for myself they would give me the opportunity to do the same with religion.

It was always my choice if I wanted to go and after the first visit I decided I wanted to go again and continued going to church for about nine years, I was baptised when I was 13.  

A few years later I decided against it and stopped going, but I'm glad that I went as I experienced a lot about people and family, generosity of spirit, work in the community etc etc.

If Hannah is capable of making the choice I would give her the opportunity to choose, children are incredibly intuitive. Better to introduce it now while you have some influence and final decision. If all it does is introduce a further element of moral fibre, and decision making based on morals into her life then all to the good. My Dad just said that he knew his banging on about 'don't do this' was falling on deaf ears more and more so he let the pastor and eternal damnation have a go.

I'm not sure if the ten commandments taught me anything or just gave me ideas for the future but at that time they gave me a postive influence!

[kinboshi]

Claire, you have a PM.

[boldie]

Claire, you have a PM.

oh come on Kin...post your tilty rant here!

[thetank]

He doesn't want everyone to know he's been born again, that's fair enough.

[Newmanseye]

Claire, you have a PM.

oh come on Kin...post your titty rant here!

FYP?

[kinboshi]

Claire, you have a PM.

oh come on Kin...post your tilty rant here!

Just tell her the truth.  Tell her what mummy believes, and that people across the world believe in all sorts of gods according to where they were born.  Tell her about the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, and then about the Abrahamic god(s) and the other popular religions of the 21st century.

I wouldn't lie to her about heaven - because then you have to explain hell.  Hell isn't very nice, and neither would be a god who condemned people to eternal suffering.

You might want to introduce her to some of Aesop's fables at the same time as some of the bible stories.  I'd avoid Job, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - in fact probably best to avoid a lot of the stories that are pretty much x-rated until she's older.

But I don't have kids, so I really shouldn't be posting on here...

[Claw75]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I think Rex and I are of one mind on this one.

I understand where you're coming from too Trace - I think I'm fundamentally a 'good' person, and I think a lot of that comes from the moral upbringing that was instilled in me through the church (along with a load of crap). Maybe it wasn't, I don't know.  Hopefully the book Rex has directed me too which I've now ordered will help with doing some of that in a non-religious way.  

Thanks for the PM Kin.

[kinboshi]

...and I think a lot of that comes from the moral upbringing that was instilled in me through the church (along with a load of crap). Maybe it wasn't, I don't know.  

You don't need a church with its arbitrary rules to have a moral upbringing.  Morals are not the sole domain of religion.  I refer again to the trials of Job or Sodom and Gomorrah and ask how they provide any moral compass?

[Claw75]

...and I think a lot of that comes from the moral upbringing that was instilled in me through the church (along with a load of crap). Maybe it wasn't, I don't know.  

You don't need a church with its arbitrary rules to have a moral upbringing.  Morals are not the sole domain of religion.  I refer again to the trials of Job or Sodom and Gomorrah and ask how they provide any moral compass?

yes I know that, of course, but it's how I was brought up so it's the extent of my personal experience.  I certainly believe being raised in a religious environment has given me a lot more hang ups too and no doubt been more than partly responsible for a lot of the problems I've experienced later in life. 

[Dingdell]

...and I think a lot of that comes from the moral upbringing that was instilled in me through the church (along with a load of crap). Maybe it wasn't, I don't know.  

You don't need a church with its arbitrary rules to have a moral upbringing.  Morals are not the sole domain of religion.  I refer again to the trials of Job or Sodom and Gomorrah and ask how they provide any moral compass?

yes I know that, of course, but it's how I was brought up so it's the extent of my personal experience.  I certainly believe being raised in a religious environment has given me a lot more hang ups too and no doubt been more than partly responsible for a lot of the problems I've experienced later in life. 

It's amazing how we all have different experiences. I think that it gave me an insight into differing views. I always listen to all political arguments before deciding what to vote for example. It comes from discussing rights and wrongs in the happy clappy tin church. Perhaps they were less sanctimonious than some churches, I think that's why my Dad chose it, not too cult like, nice people, and no booze.

[Claw75]

...and I think a lot of that comes from the moral upbringing that was instilled in me through the church (along with a load of crap). Maybe it wasn't, I don't know.  

You don't need a church with its arbitrary rules to have a moral upbringing.  Morals are not the sole domain of religion.  I refer again to the trials of Job or Sodom and Gomorrah and ask how they provide any moral compass?

yes I know that, of course, but it's how I was brought up so it's the extent of my personal experience.  I certainly believe being raised in a religious environment has given me a lot more hang ups too and no doubt been more than partly responsible for a lot of the problems I've experienced later in life. 

It's amazing how we all have different experiences. I think that it gave me an insight into differing views. I always listen to all political arguments before deciding what to vote for example. It comes from discussing rights and wrongs in the happy clappy tin church. Perhaps they were less sanctimonious than some churches, I think that's why my Dad chose it, not too cult like, nice people, and no booze.

yes it certainly sounds different Trace.  I was told what was right and what was wrong at my school - there was no discussion!

[Jon MW]

What real harm do people think can happen to a child being taught Christianity as fact in a C of E (almost secular) kind of way ?

The worse that can happen is ...............................................................

Plenty of time to challenge belief systems for oneself later in life (as you have Claire). Children get a zillion inputs, many that conflict, and given time and a loving envirnoment I think they figure this stuff out for themselves quite easily when they're ready.

I'd go along with this.

Obviously you have to be wary of any school or any individuals who set out to tell her 'facts' about religion in absolutist terms of right and wrong, but generally speaking she'll work out whatever she believes in by herself.

As an example of how little influence you might actually have:
Me and my younger sister have nothing to do with the church, my older brother is a regular church goer - and my older sister is a minister.
From that I don't think you could really work out where our parents stood on it.

So as long as you make sure she avoids any complete 'brainwashing' (from either side), I don't think it's even possible for you to go far wrong.

[kinboshi]

What real harm do people think can happen to a child being taught Christianity as fact in a C of E (almost secular) kind of way ?

The worse that can happen is ...............................................................

Plenty of time to challenge belief systems for oneself later in life (as you have Claire). Children get a zillion inputs, many that conflict, and given time and a loving envirnoment I think they figure this stuff out for themselves quite easily when they're ready.

I'd go along with this.

Obviously you have to be wary of any school or any individuals who set out to tell her 'facts' about religion in absolutist terms of right and wrong, but generally speaking she'll work out whatever she believes in by herself.

As an example of how little influence you might actually have:
Me and my younger sister have nothing to do with the church, my older brother is a regular church goer - and my older sister is a minister.
From that I don't think you could really work out where our parents stood on it.

So as long as you make sure she avoids any complete 'brainwashing' (from either side), I don't think it's even possible for you to go far wrong.

Why shouldn't Claire tell Hannah what she thinks is right, and therefore what she thinks is made-up stories?   Why COE and not Catholic, or maybe a non-Christian religion such as Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or maybe the Greek gods or even Scientology?

[WYSINWYG]

Before you do anything I think you need to establish for yourself exactly what you think of religion and exactly what benefits it confers. Some people (like here) seem to think it may confer a moral framework, whether it's based on truth or not. Others think that teaching its belief system is harmless, others quite harmful.
I was brought up in a religious environment, it was only by a minor miracle actually that I was able to extricate myself from what I was taught. All of my close and extended family members are still seriously involved in it. I don't believe its a matter of 'teach them some stuff and let them work out the rest later'. Humans are cultural beings, we're built to accept what we're taught at an early age as if it were gospel (lawl) and built not to deviate from it later even if our reason seems to be challenging it a bit. In my opinion, this is why religion still pervades our society, despite so many philosophical revolutions to the contrary: in so many families this cycle repeats from generation to generation. Kids 'believe' something cos it's what their parents/school teaches them about religion; they become unsure whether to accept or reject it really; they pass the religion on to their kids; rinse/repeat.
As for the morality provided by Christianity: certain arbitrary components may seem healthy/adaptive (do onto others as you would have them do onto you; love thy neighbour; do not worship worldly possessions; give to the poor;be humble) but in fact this is the sheep's clothing for a pretty f*cked up moral framework built around blame and guilt, that ends up pervading the personal and social attributions of those poisoned by it.
The Truth Will Set You Free.

Click to see full-size image.

[Jon MW]

If I was going to for one, I'd go for the Ancient Greek Gods

They had the best stories