Ruling from £50k Gtd at DTD this weekend..

[avillan]

This very thing happened to me when I was sat in seat 10 in the WSOP last year and the ruling was that my hand was dead. I had raised UTG with AA!!! ;-( I had been re-raised and I declared all-in when the player in seat 4 threw his cards into the centre of the table, they hit the dealers fist, landed on my cards that had a card protector on them, the dealer retreived them into the muck, then the lad in seat 8 who had re-raised me kicked off that my hand was dead, rule by the td was that my hand was infact dead and I had to match the re-raise!!!

My argument to the td was that my cards were still in front of me with my card protector on them, the cards that had landed on my protector had not infact been mucked at that point as they had not touched the muck, his ruling was that the line constituted the muck line and once they had touched my cards wether there was a protector there or not meant that my hand was dead. Perhaps it was because I was a brit and the player in seat 8 was a yank.

I have since seen this happen in poker after dark and nothing happened on that occasion as the two cards that touched the other players cards were just simply mucked, comonsense prevailed.

[Splash]

Splash, in the DTD incident, did the player have a card protector, or were his cards just sitting there exposed? (apologies if this was mentioned earlier)

No card protector

[GreekStein]

6. Cards thrown into the muck and mixed are ruled dead, if the cards remain clearly identifiable they may be retrieved by the (TD)

If we went along with D.T.D's ruling it would be clear that players sitting in seats 1 & 10 would be at a disavantage. And as players why would we want that to be the case? What if the muck is amassed in front of the player sitting in seat 10, then as the dealer tosses some mucked cards towards the muck they slide into players 10's space and touch his cards. Player 10 has his cards protected by a chip so his cards are clearly identifiable...but they have now touched the dreaded muck. His cards are dead now? Cos we can't do nothing now. Cos they've touched the muck. And the muck is more powerful than all of us put together. This is plain wrong.

This very thing happened to me when I was sat in seat 10 in the WSOP last year and the ruling was that my hand was dead. I had raised UTG with AA!!! ;-( I had been re-raised and I declared all-in when the player in seat 4 threw his cards into the centre of the table, they hit the dealers fist, landed on my cards that had a card protector on them, the dealer retreived them into the muck, then the lad in seat 8 who had re-raised me kicked off that my hand was dead, rule by the td was that my hand was infact dead and I had to match the re-raise!!!

In a seperate incident at the Venetian I was also involved in a hand where I was all-in on my BB, my cards were protected, I was at the table when both cards were dealt and there was action between other players. I went over to the next table and put my name on another sit and go and came back to my original table , the hand was still in progress but the dealer had mucked my cards and left my card protector where I was sat, The td was called and the ruling was that it was a dealer error and I was given a sb back!!!

Can anyone explain the old offside rule?

The wsop story is sick. Did you not want to put your chair through the American's face?

Different ruling if your name was Negreanu or Hellmuth methinks

[avillan]

6. Cards thrown into the muck and mixed are ruled dead, if the cards remain clearly identifiable they may be retrieved by the (TD)

If we went along with D.T.D's ruling it would be clear that players sitting in seats 1 & 10 would be at a disavantage. And as players why would we want that to be the case? What if the muck is amassed in front of the player sitting in seat 10, then as the dealer tosses some mucked cards towards the muck they slide into players 10's space and touch his cards. Player 10 has his cards protected by a chip so his cards are clearly identifiable...but they have now touched the dreaded muck. His cards are dead now? Cos we can't do nothing now. Cos they've touched the muck. And the muck is more powerful than all of us put together. This is plain wrong.

This very thing happened to me when I was sat in seat 10 in the WSOP last year and the ruling was that my hand was dead. I had raised UTG with AA!!! ;-( I had been re-raised and I declared all-in when the player in seat 4 threw his cards into the centre of the table, they hit the dealers fist, landed on my cards that had a card protector on them, the dealer retreived them into the muck, then the lad in seat 8 who had re-raised me kicked off that my hand was dead, rule by the td was that my hand was infact dead and I had to match the re-raise!!!

In a seperate incident at the Venetian I was also involved in a hand where I was all-in on my BB, my cards were protected, I was at the table when both cards were dealt and there was action between other players. I went over to the next table and put my name on another sit and go and came back to my original table , the hand was still in progress but the dealer had mucked my cards and left my card protector where I was sat, The td was called and the ruling was that it was a dealer error and I was given a sb back!!!

Can anyone explain the old offside rule?

The wsop story is sick. Did you not want to put your chair through the American's face?

Different ruling if your name was Negreanu or Hellmuth methinks

What really pissed me off was that the tosser in seat 8, once he had the ruling in his favour, (even though I still had my AA in front of me with the card protector on them) showed me AK. The td said that he was sorry but that was the rule!!! like you say, imagine Hellmuth accepting that rule without the whole of the room or the whole of Nevada knowing about it, lol - joke

[avillan]

6. Cards thrown into the muck and mixed are ruled dead, if the cards remain clearly identifiable they may be retrieved by the (TD)

If we went along with D.T.D's ruling it would be clear that players sitting in seats 1 & 10 would be at a disavantage. And as players why would we want that to be the case? What if the muck is amassed in front of the player sitting in seat 10, then as the dealer tosses some mucked cards towards the muck they slide into players 10's space and touch his cards. Player 10 has his cards protected by a chip so his cards are clearly identifiable...but they have now touched the dreaded muck. His cards are dead now? Cos we can't do nothing now. Cos they've touched the muck. And the muck is more powerful than all of us put together. This is plain wrong.

This very thing happened to me when I was sat in seat 10 in the WSOP last year and the ruling was that my hand was dead. I had raised UTG with AA!!! ;-( I had been re-raised and I declared all-in when the player in seat 4 threw his cards into the centre of the table, they hit the dealers fist, landed on my cards that had a card protector on them, the dealer retreived them into the muck, then the lad in seat 8 who had re-raised me kicked off that my hand was dead, rule by the td was that my hand was infact dead and I had to match the re-raise!!!

In a seperate incident at the Venetian I was also involved in a hand where I was all-in on my BB, my cards were protected, I was at the table when both cards were dealt and there was action between other players. I went over to the next table and put my name on another sit and go and came back to my original table , the hand was still in progress but the dealer had mucked my cards and left my card protector where I was sat, The td was called and the ruling was that it was a dealer error and I was given a sb back!!!

Can anyone explain the old offside rule?

The wsop story is sick. Did you not want to put your chair through the American's face?

Different ruling if your name was Negreanu or Hellmuth methinks

What really pissed me off was that the tosser in seat 8, once he had the ruling in his favour, (even though I still had my AA in front of me with the card protector on them) showed me AK. The td said that he was sorry but that was the rule!!! like you say, imagine Hellmuth accepting that rule without the whole of the room or the whole of Nevada knowing about it, lol - joke

To be honest, the last two years of playing the circut has taught me a lot. I have seen well established pro's pulling stunts at the tables, probably against players who dont really know the rules or more importantly "the moves", I dont mind these "moves" if they are legal but a few of them have been nothing more than "cheating" and I'm catching on fast to the "movers" and the "cheaters"

[jakally]

What kind of moves / stunts?

[kinboshi]

Splash, in the DTD incident, did the player have a card protector, or were his cards just sitting there exposed? (apologies if this was mentioned earlier)

No card protector

Not saying the ruling is or isn't fair, but it's definitely a lesson to be heeded.  Especially, if you're in seated next to the dealer.

[Claw75]

I think Homer or Snoops came up with the butter dish card protector idea a while ago. This is surely FTW. When you buy in you get your butter dish and your cards must be under the butter dish to be protected. No need for interpretation anymore, and everyone looks equally titty at the table.

It was me.  I think it might they might be the essential poker item for 2009 if you're ever sitting in seats 1 or 9/10.

It was Dewi's idea, surely?

[avillan]

What kind of moves / stunts?

I am not going to mention any names but these are some of the stunts

Betting 25k on the river even though they only had 14k in front of them (seat 10 v seat 1 player) seat one had about 24k left and mucked instantly!!!

Holding hole cards about 6 inches above the line, "saying go on then - take it" to which his opponent said "good pass" and mucked, then the player holding the cards said "hang on mate, I aint folded yet" and took the pot!!

Sitting with arms in front of their chips, re-raising a bet and declaring "all of them" and putting a stack into the middle- pre-flop, I asked for a count and called, the dealer said "on yer backs" to which I exposed my cards when the other player said " Woe, I still got chips here" and moved his arms revealing another stack of several thousand chips. I had pocket tens and the rule was that I could not instigate any betting for the round, I could only call, needless to say that he put me all in on a jack high flop - and No, I didnt call. The other player sat there with a shitty smirk on his face.

Ceasers Palace, I'm sitting with pocket kings and there's been action on every street and this player is just trying to get me out of the pot J 8 7 2 rainbow board when he re-raise me on the turn to which I go all-in, the all-in bet is about a 2000 more for him to call, his re-raise was 12k and there was about 32k in the middle, The dealer counts the difference, tells him it's another 2k, he says to the dealer "go on then" and puts his cards face up on the table to reveal A 8 the dealer turns the river card which is a blank and asks this bloke for the extra 2k, he says "I never said call" a ruling was sought and the td gave me the pot but because he never said the words call he didnt have to pay me, I asked if the ace had come would he have claimed the pot?

[AndrewT]

Holding hole cards about 6 inches above the line, "saying go on then - take it" to which his opponent said "good pass" and mucked, then the player holding the cards said "hang on mate, I aint folded yet" and took the pot!!

Doubt this player would be too difficult to spot - he'll be the guy who has had all his teeth knocked out.

Sitting with arms in front of their chips, re-raising a bet and declaring "all of them" and putting a stack into the middle- pre-flop, I asked for a count and called, the dealer said "on yer backs" to which I exposed my cards when the other player said " Woe, I still got chips here" and moved his arms revealing another stack of several thousand chips. I had pocket tens and the rule was that I could not instigate any betting for the round, I could only call, needless to say that he put me all in on a jack high flop - and No, I didnt call. The other player sat there with a shitty smirk on his face.

Surely a decent dealer would realise this was a stroke and declare that he took 'all of them' as a verbal declaration of all-in?

Ceasers Palace, I'm sitting with pocket kings and there's been action on every street and this player is just trying to get me out of the pot J 8 7 2 rainbow board when he re-raise me on the turn to which I go all-in, the all-in bet is about a 2000 more for him to call, his re-raise was 12k and there was about 32k in the middle, The dealer counts the difference, tells him it's another 2k, he says to the dealer "go on then" and puts his cards face up on the table to reveal A 8 the dealer turns the river card which is a blank and asks this bloke for the extra 2k, he says "I never said call" a ruling was sought and the td gave me the pot but because he never said the words call he didnt have to pay me, I asked if the ace had come would he have claimed the pot?

I've seen the same thing at Caesars - such a stupid rule.

[MANTIS01]

If I was kings man in this example and the TD ruled my hand was dead by saying "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers, you know what I'd do? I would ruin the game. And that would be very easy to do. I would take my full 2 minutes over EVERY decision. I would timebank every hand and the clock would have to be called on me every five minutes. I would call the TD for a ruling over any and every technicality. I would amass all the small denomination chips and refuse to give change. In doing these things the table would be playing only a few hands an hour. When the TD asked me for my reason I would say "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers. Cos like Bobby Brown said...two can play that game.

Anyone at my table who supported the TD's ruling about the Kings, which is very easy to do when it doesn't affect YOU, would suddenly drop that line like a hot potato. We are adults and the decision we should all support is the one that helps the 10 of us enjoy a fair game of poker.

[jakally]

If I was kings man in this example and the TD ruled my hand was dead by saying "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers, you know what I'd do? I would ruin the game. And that would be very easy to do. I would take my full 2 minutes over EVERY decision. I would timebank every hand and the clock would have to be called on me every five minutes. I would call the TD for a ruling over any and every technicality. I would amass all the small denomination chips and refuse to give change. In doing these things the table would be playing only a few hands an hour. When the TD asked me for my reason I would say "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers. Cos like Bobby Brown said...two can play that game.

Anyone at my table who supported the TD's ruling about the Kings, which is very easy to do when it doesn't affect YOU, would suddenly drop that line like a hot potato. We are adults and the decision we should all support is the one that helps the 10 of us enjoy a fair game of poker.

'We are adults'....................    so when we don't get our own way, we cry and stamp our little feet until we do.

[kinboshi]

If I was kings man in this example and the TD ruled my hand was dead by saying "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers, you know what I'd do? I would ruin the game. And that would be very easy to do. I would take my full 2 minutes over EVERY decision. I would timebank every hand and the clock would have to be called on me every five minutes. I would call the TD for a ruling over any and every technicality. I would amass all the small denomination chips and refuse to give change. In doing these things the table would be playing only a few hands an hour. When the TD asked me for my reason I would say "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers. Cos like Bobby Brown said...two can play that game.

That's your prerogative.

[MANTIS01]

'We are adults'....................    so when we don't get our own way, we cry and stamp our little feet until we do.

I wouldn't cry I don't think. I think I would see myself as a crusader for what is right and be kinda proud. Like a modern day William Wallace type character. Although I don't imagine I'd scream FREEDOMMMM, or anything like that cos that would be a bit irrelevant really. You could tag any form of protest as a childish reaction to not getting your own way if you so desired. I choose not to see it that way.

Also....

That's your prerogative.

Absolute LOL!!!

[gatso]

If I was kings man in this example and the TD ruled my hand was dead by saying "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers, you know what I'd do? I would ruin the game. And that would be very easy to do. I would take my full 2 minutes over EVERY decision. I would timebank every hand and the clock would have to be called on me every five minutes. I would call the TD for a ruling over any and every technicality. I would amass all the small denomination chips and refuse to give change. In doing these things the table would be playing only a few hands an hour. When the TD asked me for my reason I would say "I am abiding by the technicalities of the rulebook", even though the spirit of the game suffers. Cos like Bobby Brown said...two can play that game.

That's your prerogative.

I'm gonna start a protest about mantis's protest. 2 can play that game