wtf i give up

[MC]

I have seen this a lot. I fold QQ here as you get knocked out by AK or Ax often enough for it to be negative equity. No need to commit all our chips here early on pre-flop with stacks as they are.

[daviebhoy]

This wasn't meant like that. There is a bit in Collin Moshmans sng book about folding QQ here and I think it applies to MTTs aswell.

[Royal Flush]

lolz yeah QQ vs AK and Ax is negative equity...

[MC]

This wasn't meant like that. There is a bit in Collin Moshmans sng book about folding QQ here and I think it applies to MTTs aswell.

Sorry dude didn't mean to be harsh or anything, but this can never ever be a fold. And Ax is one of the hands you want them to have, how can being a 2 to 1 favourite be negative equity?

[daviebhoy]

lolz yeah QQ vs AK and Ax is negative equity...

I never meant that. It is more than likely you are up against AA or KK and a lot of the time you are flipping for all your chips.

From the Moshman book, "Low-blind pre-flop all-ins are very consistent with aces or kings. Against a single opponent, particularly a low-stakes loose player, the odds of him holding a lesser hands (ideally jacks or ace-queen suited), leaving you a heavy favorite) may make a call worthwhile........It is very likely you are up against Aces or Kings, and despite having an excellent hand pre-flop, you must fold. You should also fold ace-king in this situation. Only call here with aces or kings."

[gribbo]

I grinded these games a ton in the summer and would never pass QQ here is a guy had a gun to ma head, u are often gona be up against face card facecard hands that u have crushed and as longy saif the tourneys are soo top heavy payout u need chips to get far. Iron you type 1 or type 2 diabetic? Im type 1 pain in the arse!

[Longy]

This wasn't meant like that. There is a bit in Collin Moshmans sng book about folding QQ here and I think it applies to MTTs aswell.

It really doesn't and Collin maybe right about sngs.

In sngs preserving chip is important due to the flat payout structure, holding on for 3rd is a possibility and a reasonable outcome. In mtts the payout structures are always top heavy and chip preservation is far less important, the way to make money in mtts is to go for the win and amass chip to weild your stack in the later stages.

Therefore taking a marginal spot early in a sng is a bad idea due to the ICM tax (payout structure again) in an MTT cEV is linear with $EV early on therefore you should be taking any edge you can get. Folding qq to what might be a range that include ax hands is really bad.

[daviebhoy]

Therefore taking a marginal spot early in a sng is a bad idea due to the ICM tax (payout structure again) in an MTT cEV is linear with $EV early on therefore you should be taking any edge you can get. Folding qq to what might be a range that include ax hands is really bad.

Fair point. Thanks Longy. I take it back and agree now that folding would be bad here. I havent been playing MTTs for a while as playing mainly 6-max cash and sng's but this is good to know.

[EvilPie]

Saw it live at DTD the other week.

Early level 50/100 I think. Guy open shoves UTG for about 4.5k.

Button calls with AQ. "How can I put him on that?"

Lol, you can't. But how can you call with AQ?

[Ironside]

so what range do we call with?

[daviebhoy]

so what range do we call with?

If its not KK+ then I guess it can only be QQ+, AK.

I'm still not totally convinced that calling with QQ or AK is good here. I think its player dependant and I'd be checking sharkscope and how active they have been before calling with QQ or AK. If they are a bad losing player who has been playing a lot of hands I would call and if its the first hand played by a winning player I'd fold. The grey area inbetween is the hard bit..........

[thetank]

From the Moshman book, "Low-blind pre-flop all-ins are very consistent with aces or kings. Against a single opponent, particularly a low-stakes loose player, the odds of him holding a lesser hands (ideally jacks or ace-queen suited), leaving you a heavy favorite) may make a call worthwhile........It is very likely you are up against Aces or Kings, and despite having an excellent hand pre-flop, you must fold. You should also fold ace-king in this situation. Only call here with aces or kings."

This is referring to the players in that hand.

The hand in the Moshman book that advice refers to goes as follows

blinds 20/40  10 players

UTG (t1820) opens for 100
2 folds
You (t1940) raise to 350
5 folds
Big blind (t1940) pushes all-in
UTG calls
Action on you

Moshman is advocating that you fold QQ in this spot which is fair enough. You are against two players, one of whom has made a 4-bet all-in (It also specifies that this player is tight aggressive), and the other who has called that all-in.

Both players in this example have shown considerable more strength than the one in Ironside's hand.

The player there makes a donk overbet all-in where nobody has raised yet.
QQ in that spot is an insta-call with a hand in the air. Sometimes you get caught out by the top of the donks range (as he did in this hand) but it's totally still a call coz donk probably makes the same all-in overbet move with 66 et al.

[thetank]

[ x ] Opponent is a random
[ x ] open shoves for 30 big blinds
[  ] Put him on AA/KK
[ x ] snap with TT



Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem Blinds : $25/$50  Full Tilt
SB ($2,650)
Hero ($1,340)
UTG ($1,425)
UTG+1 ($3,080)
UTG+2 ($1,225)
MP1 ($655)
CO ($1,495)
BTN ($1,630)

Dealt to Hero

fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $1,495, fold, fold, Hero calls $1,290,

FLOP ($2,705) 



TURN ($2,705)  



RIVER ($2,705)



CO shows 
(Flop 2.3%, Turn 9.1%)

Hero shows 
(Flop 97.7%, Turn 90.9%)

Hero wins $2,705


[ x ] Iron should fold QQ next time.

Keep calling. Donks are always donks, sometimes they've just got the aces and you have to bite it.