Attractive Hand, Attractive Flop

[davidhendrie]

First level of a live tournament, 7000 starting chips, around 35 runners.  Table has been pretty tight so far.  I’ve played a couple of hands, winning one small pot, still roughly on the starting stack. Twenty minutes in there’s a limp from third to act, re-raise to 200 from player on our direct right, we put it up to 600 with pocket Queens from the cutoff, button and SB fold, BB calls, early limper calls, original raiser calls (less than ideal clearly). Flop is seven, eight, Jack rainbow. Checked to us, we bet half the pot (1200). BB folds, the solid regular who originally limped in check-raises to 2800, the original raiser folds. We have just over 5000 left , and have him covered (just).

What do we do next?

And more importantly: what kind of information do we need on the situation to make that decision accurately?   

[Newmanseye]

even reading this it feels liek a set but i dont see how you can get off your hand here.

tough spot

[MC]

I raise more pre behind the limper, up to 800.

Very tough spot. Hard to weigh up whether we're drawing dead or if he's got some kind of Jack.

This is a great flop for JT, and QJ/KJ/AJ might all make this raise.

I'm trying to decide whether calling is an option. Shove and we get it in bad more times than we get it in good. But I'm not sure we have the info to laydown. Perhaps call and re-evaluate on the turn would be okay here with position.

[boldie]

Call and snap call the turn bet that he will surely make.

edit* just read the first level of the tourney bit...thought the blind was at 200 already.

Trickier now.

You either commit all your chips now..or you move out of the way here...no point flatting this and hoping for your miracle queen if you reckon you're behind. Fold here, me thinks. (Unless you think he could do this with AJ...in which case he isn't solid)

[AlexMartin]

they should get together and make babies imo. then you have attractive chips.

[EvilPie]

Depends whether you're going for the win or just happy to plod along, have a good night and slowly blind away possibly making the money if you get a few more attractive hands with no competition.

If it's the former just shove or flat then shove the turn. If you lose it's just unlucky.

If it's the latter just pass.

Sorry I can't be more helpful but without knowing your oppo and without knowing how well he knows you this is about all I've got.

[Royal Flush]

Flat pre.

[EvilPie]

Flat pre.

Then on this flop assuming we're about 5 handed?

[GreekStein]

fold

[dousche]

depends entirely on the limpers range. does he limp/call RR with AJ? KJ? QJ? TJ? If the answer is no to most of these its a pass for me. just looks like a horrible spot.

Depends whether you're going for the win or just happy to plod along, have a good night and slowly blind away possibly making the money if you get a few more attractive hands with no competition.

If it's the former just shove or flat then shove the turn. If you lose it's just unlucky.

If it's the latter just pass.

Sorry I can't be more helpful but without knowing your oppo and without knowing how well he knows you this is about all I've got.

i dont really agree with this, 1st level, passing leaves us with 5k and this is hardly a prime spot for chip accumulation

[EvilPie]

depends entirely on the limpers range. does he limp/call RR with AJ? KJ? QJ? TJ? If the answer is no to most of these its a pass for me. just looks like a horrible spot.

Depends whether you're going for the win or just happy to plod along, have a good night and slowly blind away possibly making the money if you get a few more attractive hands with no competition.

If it's the former just shove or flat then shove the turn. If you lose it's just unlucky.

If it's the latter just pass.

Sorry I can't be more helpful but without knowing your oppo and without knowing how well he knows you this is about all I've got.

i dont really agree with this, 1st level, passing leaves us with 5k and this is hardly a prime spot for chip accumulation

Then in your case without further information it's a pass.

Personally in a 35 runner comp presumably fairly fast structure that's going to be finished in 6 hours or so I'm never passing an over pair without a good read on oppo.

Slower structure, bigger comp fair enough I may well pass but in this (presumed) comp it's going in.

[dousche]

depends entirely on the limpers range. does he limp/call RR with AJ? KJ? QJ? TJ? If the answer is no to most of these its a pass for me. just looks like a horrible spot.

Depends whether you're going for the win or just happy to plod along, have a good night and slowly blind away possibly making the money if you get a few more attractive hands with no competition.

If it's the former just shove or flat then shove the turn. If you lose it's just unlucky.

If it's the latter just pass.

Sorry I can't be more helpful but without knowing your oppo and without knowing how well he knows you this is about all I've got.

i dont really agree with this, 1st level, passing leaves us with 5k and this is hardly a prime spot for chip accumulation

Then in your case without further information it's a pass.

Personally in a 35 runner comp presumably fairly fast structure that's going to be finished in 6 hours or so I'm never passing an over pair without a good read on oppo.

Slower structure, bigger comp fair enough I may well pass but in this (presumed) comp it's going in.

im assuming in this comp theres gonna be plenty of room for chipping up in the near future

[davidhendrie]

Why flat pre Flushy?  Keeping the pot small? We’ve probably got the best hand, if we raise we’ll probably find out if we don’t, and by raising we can 1) get more chips in the pot and 2) rule out the more dubious hands like 78, 910, J9, J8 that would connect strongly with this flop. Genuinely interested, as I think that I’ve over committed myself to the hand by raising pre and and betting on the flop, but don’t understand how or why I should have done otherwise.

I considered raising more pre but thought that I would drive away action (especially by weaker hands like AJ, KJ, J10) by doing so. Might have been a better option though.

On the flop I’m obviously hoping that oppo has planned to check-raise a c-bet from me with a hand like AJ or semi-bluffing a hand like J10. Presumably I can then pass hands like AQ, AK, nines or tens.  I agree that I don’t think I can call here if I think I’m behind. Calling leaves me around three and half thousand left, and reasonably certain opponent will bet at least half that on the turn. If I call I’ve committed half my chips to this hand and I won’t be able/willing to lay it down.

I’m also struggling to think of the arguments for shoving to be honest. If oppo has the Jack and thinks it might be good then shouldn’t we flat and call/raise/bet the turn? But I’m more inclined to put opponent on a pocket pair from the limp call pre, or a loose call from a weaker hand like J10, QJ. I think he open raises AJ, so although I can’t be sure shoving and hoping that he’s got AJ and will make a poor call seems optimistic at best.  Obviously I suspect I'm beat but the deficit of information is giving me the tricky decision.

I really like oppo’s bet size incidentally. If he is check-raising a hand with a jack that we’re beating, he’s left himself (in my opinion) enough chips to fold if we shove. But it’s such a little amount then 1) we’re tempted to shove 2) we struggle to pass for this amount with this hand on this flop, but if we call we’re committed.  Would anyone bet more on the flop?  If we bet in the region of 1800-2000 and oppo raises another 2k into us does that give us enough information to pass here?  A couple of people have mentioned that three checks on the flop was suspicious in itself, but there’s no way I can check the flop here to three other players is there?  A feeler bet? 600 maybe? 

[EvilPie]

Flushy's having one of his inducing weeks imo.

[davidhendrie]

eh? I don't undertand.