Big Slick £300. In the money 2 chip leaders collide

[MANTIS01]

as played

two decisions

- check, fold to bet, still got 300K left, plenty of time to grow
- allin, you'll be happy to take the 180 odd K, there and then, making you chip leader

I probably choose to push and pass him the decision, if he's got JJ or worse, 22, thats life.

By pushing you don't pass him a decision. If he has a better hand he will call and if he has a worse hand he will fold. The decision is already made. Do we want worse hands folding?

[mike saban]

fair points, totally taken on board.

I have 1 additional point though, please share your thoughts on this.

theres approx 185K in the middle and you have approx 290K behind. By pushing and taking whats in the middle now, you are almost doubling your stack without fear of him catching up should you check and he check behind and be allowed another card on the turn.

sorry 2 points.

Also as played in this scenario, by playing the AQ, what are you looking to hit on the flop if your not going to play now ? If this guy is pretty aggressive I assume that your stack will be put to the test regardless if you bet out here or check and call.

Thanks for quick responses to my previous comments

[outragous76]

your first point is answered by the points above - you have no value in the play

as for the 2nd point - the original raise is to 14.5k - not 91k where it ended up!

Just flat and play a small pot. If your opponent has AK - he is unlikely to be able to bet every street for value with the board getting worse for him when you are ck calling every street!

You could play the hand to the river for value for less than the 91k pre which commits you to the pot. If you lose, you los, but you are unlikely to go bust

[mike saban]

get what your advising, by allowing the villian to take the lead with the betting on the flop, potentially we will make more chips if AQ is good, I'm still not entirely convinced but do understand the point that is being made.

I'm not entirely convinced because obviously by slow playing we are risking that the villians hand will catch up and also not knowing where we are to another bet but at the same time I do accept completely the point about not putting as many of our chips at risk as only going to get called by better hand.

FWIW my inital suggestion was to raise to 40K and fold if a re-reaise. As played, we must either believe that AQ is good to continue on this flop and if we don't believe its good then the call of the reraise was a bad one.

Interested to see the next step, as this post has certainly got me thinking of what I would do now, and what I really should do if in this position

[AlexMartin]

lol this is going nuts. calling that 4b is criminal. tbh though once i get here i probs c/c flop and try and re-evaluate turn. Your line looks super strong so u dont really have to worry about him ever firing some kind of sick double barrel in a 4b pot with worse imo, yet he prolly will cbet KK and QQ (not sure why but live pro's do).

check call flop and probably check fold the turn.

[Simon Galloway]

check call flop and probably check fold the turn.

With a hand expectation like that, it gives support to Tank's line.

[outragous76]

Mike - i think we all agree that the preflop line was super horrible - but the fact of the matter is we are there. So it is a case of what to do now.

Your opening comment in your last post makes me think that you think you have a strong hand? Against the villlains range you have a hand with show down value if you can get there as cheap as possible. I would be honest if it went ck ck, ck ck, i wouldnt even value bet the river with AQ in this spot! It is the weakest holding that you will get paid with.

Alex has the right line  - i think the c bet with KK is opponent dependant, but being so deep into the hand i think it could get checked down if they have KK.

[GreekStein]

Again - thanks for responses guys. Thread has provoked some good discussion so far even though I've been kicking myself for 3 days about calling the 4-bet pre. Sick sick brain-fart. Hopefully I don't have one again for another 3 months.

I was thinking a fair bit as to why I did it at the time and here's what I came up with....Villain was raising so much that against his button open I was happy to reraise him for value. I was expecting him to pass pre but even if he defended in position which he'd done once or twice with less than premium hands I believe I could have played the hand profitably enough OOP. I was never really expecting him to 4-ball me and I didn't want to fold and have him turn over 106 or 5-bet smash into KK and hence brain fart.

Anyway....

I check the flop. Villain checks behind.

Turn 5.

I decide to check again.

He bet's 62k. I call.

River comes another 5.

I check again. Villain moves all in for c.300k and now has me covered.

We?

[boldie]

Again - thanks for responses guys. Thread has provoked some good discussion so far even though I've been kicking myself for 3 days about calling the 4-bet pre. Sick sick brain-fart. Hopefully I don't have one again for another 3 months.

I was thinking a fair bit as to why I did it at the time and here's what I came up with....Villain was raising so much that against his button open I was happy to reraise him for value. I was expecting him to pass pre but even if he defended in position which he'd done once or twice with less than premium hands I believe I could have played the hand profitably enough OOP. I was never really expecting him to 4-ball me and I didn't want to fold and have him turn over 106 or 5-bet smash into KK and hence brain fart.

Anyway....

I check the flop. Villain checks behind.

Turn 5.

I decide to check again.

He bet's 62k. I call.

River comes another 5.

I check again. Villain moves all in for c.300k and now has me covered.

We?

92k pre...check the flop back to you..milk the turn and then smash the river?

Wow, he either has a set or air here, thinking he can bet you off a weak ace or something. I probs snap here.

[outragous76]

he has AA - everytime!

he checks the nuts on the flop

he value towns on the turn, and then he has (pretty much) the nuts on the river and thinks you have the case A to pay him off!

If that is a bluff on the end - fair play to him - but it is only a bluff 5% of the time because of your (enforced) weak line.

I fold on the end, and you have to pay the v bet on the turn. You got away as cheap as possible post flop after your horrible line pre.............. oh wait you called?!?!!?!?!!?!??

[Blatch]

I reckon he has got JJ or AA here.

Without being there and seeing the action its tough to tell if he is capable of a sick bluff here but way played I have to fold.

Just out of interest cos, ever consider check raising the turn???

[mike saban]

fold, agree with outragous76 and Blatch, surely he has to have AA or JJ now ?

[George2Loose]

I would lead turn as played fold river

[outragous76]

I would lead turn as played fold river

I agree with this - just to name your own price - as i think the v bet should have been a little bigger by the villain. He prob got away as cheap as possible!

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Just out of interest cos, ever consider check raising the turn???

WTF??

What would be the reasoning to do so?