Question about ranges and calling allins

[doubleup]

Example:

Someone has pushed for 10bbs and you conclude that they will do this with:

44+,A2s+,A4o+,K8s+,K9o+,Q9s+,QJo,JTs

Should you call them with a range that overall shows ev+ but includes cards that are -ev against the range e.g. KJo

or a range that only includes cards that are ev+ against the range (obv much much tighter)

I'm ignoring chip equity pot size etc but if anyone has any relevant points about this please go ahead.

[Moskvich]

Er, eh? I'm not sure I really understand the question - and especially not this bit:

"Should you call them with a range that overall shows ev+ but includes cards that are -ev against the range e.g. KJo"

If you have KJo and you think their range is as you describe, then no, you don't call, cos as you say it's -EV. You call, as you say, only if your cards beat their range.

Is the problem here with the idea of a 'calling range'? You don't have a 'range' in this spot (at least from your own point of view), you just have two cards.

Obviously you do have a calling range, but only in the mind of the villain in the hand, because he doesn't know what you've got. So you might have to consider what villain thinks your calling range is, as part of your consideration of villain's shoving range - but once you've done that you don't decide whether to call based on any 'range' of yours, only on whether your actual hand beats your estimation of his shoving range...

Does that make sense, or did I misunderstand..?

[MANTIS01]

This is entirely situation dependant is it not? For example, if you are a big CL and the sb open shoves 10bbs into your bb on the bubble then it's an easy call. If he ships UTG and we have 20bbs UTG+1 then it's an easy pass. Without any of these other situational factors to consider it's a question you can't really answer. Can you ever answer any poker questions in general terms without saying it depends upon etc...?

[doubleup]

Er, eh? I'm not sure I really understand the question - and especially not this bit:

"Should you call them with a range that overall shows ev+ but includes cards that are -ev against the range e.g. KJo"

If you have KJo and you think their range is as you describe, then no, you don't call, cos as you say it's -EV. You call, as you say, only if your cards beat their range.

Is the problem here with the idea of a 'calling range'? You don't have a 'range' in this spot (at least from your own point of view), you just have two cards.

Obviously you do have a calling range, but only in the mind of the villain in the hand, because he doesn't know what you've got. So you might have to consider what villain thinks your calling range is, as part of your consideration of villain's shoving range - but once you've done that you don't decide whether to call based on any 'range' of yours, only on whether your actual hand beats your estimation of his shoving range...

Does that make sense, or did I misunderstand..?

Yes thanks I was just mulling over things the other way round i.e. how often a competent villain would be likely to call and under the circumstance described the calling range seemed quite tight.  (Although I realise that antes and blinds prob widen it a bit)