Turn action?

[T_Mar]

Thoughts appreciated on the following pls

Whats your move here facing 2nd barrel??
If you call the turn whats plan for river??
Ok to just call pre and on the flop??


PokerStars Game #28310075049: Tournament #162033786, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (750/1500) - 2009/05/17 16:36:38 ET
Table '162033786 78' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: haxxories (14882 in chips)
Seat 2: joscha45 (12995 in chips)
Seat 3: ziezenz (26564 in chips)
Seat 4: PocketPayett (31614 in chips)
Seat 5: dpjpq (21325 in chips)
Seat 6: StormForce 7 (50127 in chips)
Seat 7: stefthor (31219 in chips)
Seat 8: T_Mar79 (55463 in chips)
Seat 9: Marnixba (63653 in chips)
haxxories: posts the ante 175
joscha45: posts the ante 175
ziezenz: posts the ante 175
PocketPayett: posts the ante 175
dpjpq: posts the ante 175
StormForce 7: posts the ante 175
stefthor: posts the ante 175
T_Mar79: posts the ante 175
Marnixba: posts the ante 175
Marnixba: posts small blind 750
haxxories: posts big blind 1500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to T_Mar79 [ ]
joscha45: folds
ziezenz: folds
PocketPayett: folds
dpjpq: folds
StormForce 7: raises 2250 to 3750
stefthor: folds
T_Mar79: calls 3750
Marnixba: folds
haxxories: folds
*** FLOP *** [ ]
StormForce 7: bets 6725
T_Mar79: calls 6725
*** TURN *** [ ] []
StormForce 7: bets 13500
T_Mar79:`???

[GreekStein]

get it in.

[George2Loose]

I really really hate these spots

Saying that I probably 3 bet pre unless villian is a nit

[Royal Flush]

lol wtf is this hand, why are we not 3betting in a spot where a 4b is sooooo likely

As it happens you tarped him good, dunno what question is.

[MANTIS01]

About 26/27k in this pot now, which is about 1/2 your stack coming in. Very little going for the call and you're never folding your disguised hand, so jamming turn seems ideal.

[T_Mar]

lol wtf is this hand, why are we not 3betting in a spot where a 4b is sooooo likely

As it happens you tarped him good, dunno what question is.

I called pre cos didn't think he would 4bet that wide (this maybe incorrect, bur what i thought at the time) and thought I could win more by flat calling when he has fck all, and fires flop again on a board like this one.

Fair enough if you think this is standard 3bet/get in thio, ta

[outragous76]

lol wtf is this hand, why are we not 3betting in a spot where a 4b is sooooo likely

As it happens you tarped him good, dunno what question is.

I called pre cos didn't think he would 4bet that wide (this maybe incorrect, bur what i thought at the time) and thought I could win more by flat calling when he has fck all, and fires flop again on a board like this one.

Fair enough if you think this is standard 3bet/get in thio, ta

using your logic, you would loose less 3 bet/folding pre than you did but flating pre and flatting flop.

AS played pre - i think you need to raise the flop.

AS played on the flop - i think I jam the turn.

Trying to find his range - you are only losing to AA KK QQ and racing AcKc. He would check the TT on the flop.

I just dont think i can fold this spot as played.

If you want to continue your line (and you do have position) - why not flat again (although i hate this play as it achieves nothing).

Get em in is my final coment!

[T_Mar]

lol wtf is this hand, why are we not 3betting in a spot where a 4b is sooooo likely

As it happens you tarped him good, dunno what question is.

I called pre cos didn't think he would 4bet that wide (this maybe incorrect, bur what i thought at the time) and thought I could win more by flat calling when he has fck all, and fires flop again on a board like this one.

Fair enough if you think this is standard 3bet/get in thio, ta

using your logic, you would loose less 3 bet/folding pre than you did but flating pre and flatting flop.

AS played pre - i think you need to raise the flop.

AS played on the flop - i think I jam the turn.

Trying to find his range - you are only losing to AA KK QQ and racing AcKc. He would check the TT on the flop.

I just dont think i can fold this spot as played.

If you want to continue your line (and you do have position) - why not flat again (although i hate this play as it achieves nothing).

Get em in is my final coment!

I didn't fold, I called all 3 streets ...I hate the idea of 3bet/ fold pre here, If I 3bet I would be getting it in, but whatever reason I didn't think I would be in good shape if I got 4 bet (looks like from flushys comment that is incorrect though)... I agree I could of raised flop, and looks like i should of jammed turn, so in summary -  completely butchered it lol

[outragous76]

I didn't fold, I called all 3 streets ...I hate the idea of 3bet/ fold pre here, If I 3bet I would be getting it in, but whatever reason I didn't think I would be in good shape if I got 4 bet (looks like from flushys comment that is incorrect though)... I agree I could of raised flop, and looks like i should of jammed turn, so in summary -  completely butchered it lol


[/quote]

So what happened if you called on every street?

There is an arguement to say that if you call the flop - you should just call the turn and river to let him bluff - HOWEVER - there are so many scare cards that i dont think this is wise.

Your line wasnt the best - but sometimes you need to readjust mid hand once you start to mis play.

Finally - if you "arent folding to a 4 bet all in" (if you had 3 bet) - it begs 2 questions - why didnt you 3 bet pre? and what are you scared of on this board?

Some of your comments in this hand are very confusing. You say you didnt think he would 4 bet wide pre -  which to me means that he would have JJ crushed - but yet you say that your not folding if thats what happened?

I have no problem with the flat pre - but you hit a "gin" flop and turn so what you concerned about?

[T_Mar]

If I 3bet pre I think I have to get it in, otherwise why 3bet, right? Because I didn't think he would 4bet wide (ie he would have me crushed/flipping) I decided to call only, his most likely holding (in my eyes) were over cards on the flop, so I called the flop hoping he would fire again, if the turn bricked.. I thought about shoving the turn, but decided it was one of those situations where I was either drawing practically dead or he was barrelling with air, so decided to call the turn with full iintention of calling any river bet, which I did when he shoved - I though at this time he would fold the times he had air if I shoved the turn

He showed 67 I won the pot

I dont like the way I played it, hence the post although it worked out ok in this instance

[Royal Flush]

Think is T_Mar you have a last resort stack almost for a 3b fold, any time someone has low 30's in bb means you can 3bet and are not in anyway committed which is why shit loads of 3b goes on with stacks around 35BB so when you get the nuts in an 'obvious 3 bet spot' you should obviously 3bet as you get 4b jammed on a lot of the time.

[Royal Flush]

If I 3bet pre I think I have to get it in, otherwise why 3bet, right? Because I didn't think he would 4bet wide

Why do you think that?

[T_Mar]

If I 3bet pre I think I have to get it in, otherwise why 3bet, right? Because I didn't think he would 4bet wide

Why do you think that?

ie I dont want to turn JJ into a bluff by 3bet/folding... I realise I may of been wrong in the assumption that he's only 4betting hands that I am a dog/small fav to 

[Horneris]

Don't 3bet fold.

Getting 36BBs in pre flop here with JJ in these spots can never be too bad.

[outragous76]

If I 3bet pre I think I have to get it in, otherwise why 3bet, right? Because I didn't think he would 4bet wide

Why do you think that?

ie I dont want to turn JJ into a bluff by 3bet/folding... I realise I may of been wrong in the assumption that he's only 4betting hands that I am a dog/small fav to 

You confuse me with your pre flop thoughts!

Anyway - as played i think your readadjustment was spot on - as suggested in my post above. You have got yourself into a situation - if you are beat, you are beat - but you might as well let him keep bluffing for value when you are good!

FWIW - i totally disagree with Horneris! (on his logic rather than his play)

I would sooner be 3 bet/ call the 4 bet shove at higher buy ins with better players (with these stacks) than  in a $20. You are more inclined to get the 4 bet bluff! Fewer people capable of it at $20 buy ins