Ruling?

[PocketQuadsSuited]

What would you do in the following situation

Two Players go to the flop, player 1 checks, player 2 goes all in, player 1 is covered, he tanks and makes the call with AK needing to hit. We get to the river which sees a King peeling off, player 1 is delighted and pulls in the pot himself.

This is where it gets interesting , dealer looks down & notices 4 burn cards. After a seconds thought he realises / suggests he burned twice after the flop, as he usually burns straight after putting the flop out then waits to take the turn card off the deck. Due to player 1 taking so long before announcing call the dealer believed he had burned again, causing burn 4 cards to be out come the river.

The players at the table were in agreement the flop was correct, the positioning of the burn cards also indicated this to be the case.

The cards were still face up, nothing mucked etc

For what it's worth this hand was not played in a casino.

[gatso]

I sack the dealer for admitting he usually burns straight after dealing the flop

defeats the whole purpose of having burn cards

[phatomch]

you cant 100% know where the extra burn card came from so the hand stays and you punch the dealer

[WarBwastard]

I'd just leave the flop as it was, put all four burn cards, the turn card and the river back in the deck, shuffle and then deal the remaining community cards again.  I'd also call the dealer all sorts of names for dealing the burn card straight after flop as that really is a stupid thing to do.

[PocketQuadsSuited]

A call was made for a ruling. The ruling was that all cards except the 1st burn & the flop were to go back into the deck for a re shuffle and the turn & river were to be re dealt.

No A or K this time round 1 very unhappy player storms out the door!

Roll on 1 week later, the player is back at the venue suggesting the ruling was right but only based on the information provided at the time which was incomplete! He said that because the pot had been awarded ( he awarded it to himself by pulling it in!) the hand is finished & no re deal should have taken place.

With no cards having been mucked, no debate as to what the pot size was and it clear a mistake had been made, not to mention the player awarded the pot to himself by pulling it in, would anyone agree with his view?
 

[ScottMGee]

I sack the dealer for admitting he usually burns straight after dealing the flop

defeats the whole purpose of having burn cards

+1

This alone puts me on Tilt every time, what is the fffing point of having burn cards if the muppet dealing burns immediately after dealing the flop!

[boldie]

I sack the dealer for admitting he usually burns straight after dealing the flop

defeats the whole purpose of having burn cards

+1

This alone puts me on Tilt every time, what is the fffing point of having burn cards if the muppet dealing burns immediately after dealing the flop!

[tikay]

".....For what it's worth this hand was not played in a casino".

So what sort of place was it then?

[dik9]

".....For what it's worth this hand was not played in a casino".

So what sort of place was it then?

/thread lol

[Cf]

A call was made for a ruling. The ruling was that all cards except the 1st burn & the flop were to go back into the deck for a re shuffle and the turn & river were to be re dealt.

Why on earth would you reshuffle? If you're going to change the board then use the "proper" turn and river.

FWIW I'd leave the board as is. The dealer suspects he knows how the mistake came about, but we can't be certain this is what happened. Only if you have complete proof of which card is which (a camera recording the table for instance) would I reconstruct the "proper" board.

Aside: We can correct this sort of situation as long as the next hand as not started. A hand starts by the first riffle of the cards.

[#1Instigator]

All rulings should be situational based and must be in the best interest of fairness. I thought the ruling was very fair, as was mentioned that everyone agreed that the 1st burned card and the flop was fine and the mistake was made after. As there was no action after the allins, there was no need for the board to stand, but re-contracting the board without knowing the exact mistake is only going to create alot of problems. The dealer did not show good table control as the customer took in the pot himself, but as Cf pointed out, the hand is not over until the next riffle. This is why players should NEVER touch the pot, button everything!

Also like to know what you think on this issue: obvious beginner makes a debateable string bet (had 3 chips in his hand and dropped ALL of them on the table with no significant pause), experienced player makes a big fuss and calls for ruling. Ruling rules in experienced player's favour.
This is what I think: String bets are ones with significant pauses in the betting motion, what the guy did was not encouraged but not a string bet. All poker rules are made and created to stop angle shooters, cheaters, and make the game fair. So what about players taking advantages of knowing the rules to gain themselves an advantage? Common things: making aware of string bets so that its cheaper to see a flop, telling people (whether right or wrong) that out of turn cannot bet as it will be cheaper to see next card, telling people bet stands when they have the nuts, delibrately checking or betting out of turn as they KNOW those action stands and all cardrooms do NOTHING to penalise them and they will gain a tactical advantage.
So what I'm asking is, should rules be enforced without question, even if the intent of the player is clear and gains no-one an unfair advantage. Should experienced players expliot loop-holes in rules to further their advantage against new players (who are keeping them in action) and verbally abuse them if they get out-drawn. Only a very experienced dealer can judge a player's intent since supervisiors don't get the clear picture most time and this is a very difficult to handle issue.

Having said that, I would like to defend all dealers, or rather defend all staff that works with money and every little mistake is magnifide because they are handling with money related issues. For the rest of you making mistakes everyday that don't have a significant impact that'll allow others to call you names and shoot you, please show some understanding and I hope all players should assist to calm situations and make poker a smooth game. Yes the automatic burning is stupid and should NEVER be done to protect mark cards, the supervisors should have noticed this. You can blame the organisation if you wish to, as its mostly their fault for putting dealers on tables for too long, thus 'forcing' them to make mistakes. Dealing requires very strong intensive concentration as mistakes are generally not tolerated, they normally have to deal with 9-10 players that have no concentration, that'll do things out of turn, try to angle shoot, verbal abuse and all sorts...it is not easy to stay focused for more than 2 hours, so please go easy on them!