Ruling?

[kinboshi]

APAT tournament at the Gala Maybury last weekend.  The standard of the first dealer at the table was shocking.  She insisted on moving chips from in front of players into the middle before the betting was done.  This caused confusion and put me on tilt, as she refused to leave the bets where they were despite me asking her to on several occasions, one just after she'd ballsed up a pot.

Anyway, she left and a 'better' dealer arrived.  He could at least work out how to check that everyone had paid their antes, and left the bets where they were until after the betting was done.  However, he made one serious blunder that compounded a mistake that lead to the floor being called over to make a ruling.

In the hand in question, UTG makes a raise to 2,000.  Three players fold, and the next player who has been raising relentlessly pre-flop throws in three 500 chips, and announces raise.  He obviously didn't see the initial raise to 2,000.  Anyway, there was some debate if he said raise before or after the chips went in.  Everyone seemed to agree it was after the chips went in that he said raise.  So my immediate thoughts were that he has to throw in another 500 chip and make up the call.

However, the dealer decided that it was a mistake and returned the chips whilst grabbing the players cards and dragging them into the muck.  The player who raised tried to get the dealer to stop what he was doing and wanted to ask for a ruling, and the floor was called over.

What's your ruling?

[Cf]

This is dependent on the card room.

I'm not too fussed on whether he said raise first, when the chips hit, etc. It's pretty obvious he was intending to raise to 1500, so let's assume all this is fine.

I'm happy that the player has the option of doing what he likes. He may fold, he may call, or he may raise.

The question is what happens to his chips. Some card rooms will say that the chips must stay in the pot (DTD springs to mind). Others will let you take the chips back.

Ask to see the house rules. If they don't mention that chips must stay in then you can take them back.

[Cf]

This happened to me in the £50 f/o on the sunday from the sky poker tour.

We had 2 tables left.

Woman went all in for ~10k. Kid a few positions later says "raise to 7k". He's then informed that she's already moved in. He decides to fold, but must leave his 7k in the pot. Which is fine by me as I've got AA in the big blind

[gatso]

This is dependent on the card room.

I'm not too fussed on whether he said raise first, when the chips hit, etc. It's pretty obvious he was intending to raise to 1500, so let's assume all this is fine.

I'm happy that the player has the option of doing what he likes. He may fold, he may call, or he may raise.

The question is what happens to his chips. Some card rooms will say that the chips must stay in the pot (DTD springs to mind). Others will let you take the chips back.

Ask to see the house rules. If they don't mention that chips must stay in then you can take them back.

re-read op and try again imo

[WarBwastard]

What were the blinds?  I'd make him raise the minimum.  So depending on that card rooms policy, either make his bet 4,000 total or twice the initial raise.  So if blinds were 300-600 for example, the UTG raise is 1400, so I'd make the guy put in 3,400.

It's his fault if he hasn't noticed there's been a raise.  So once he announces raise he's obligated to raise.

[Cf]

This is dependent on the card room.

I'm not too fussed on whether he said raise first, when the chips hit, etc. It's pretty obvious he was intending to raise to 1500, so let's assume all this is fine.

I'm happy that the player has the option of doing what he likes. He may fold, he may call, or he may raise.

The question is what happens to his chips. Some card rooms will say that the chips must stay in the pot (DTD springs to mind). Others will let you take the chips back.

Ask to see the house rules. If they don't mention that chips must stay in then you can take them back.

re-read op and try again imo

?

I'm ignoring the end bit about the dealer trying to muck the cards. That's just daft, and I hope he was stopped before they were mucked.

[kinboshi]

This is dependent on the card room.

I'm not too fussed on whether he said raise first, when the chips hit, etc. It's pretty obvious he was intending to raise to 1500, so let's assume all this is fine.

I'm happy that the player has the option of doing what he likes. He may fold, he may call, or he may raise.

The question is what happens to his chips. Some card rooms will say that the chips must stay in the pot (DTD springs to mind). Others will let you take the chips back.

Ask to see the house rules. If they don't mention that chips must stay in then you can take them back.

re-read op and try again imo

?

I'm ignoring the end bit about the dealer trying to muck the cards. That's just daft, and I hope he was stopped before they were mucked.

Nope.

[Cf]

Oh. Well in that case:

a) Shoot the dealer
b) Give the player his 1500 back
c) Find a spade
d) Dig a suitable hole behind the casino
e) Put body into hole
f) Fill hole
g) Resume tournament

[gatso]

utg raises to 2k. mp then throws in 1500. htf is that not a call? you want to give him the option to fold or raise now? wtf? have you flipped? or maybe I have? I really don't know anymore

[phatomch]

What were the blinds?  I'd make him raise the minimum.  So depending on that card rooms policy, either make his bet 4,000 total or twice the initial raise.  So if blinds were 300-600 for example, the UTG raise is 1400, so I'd make the guy put in 3,400.

It's his fault if he hasn't noticed there's been a raise.  So once he announces raise he's obligated to raise.

this, he has announced raise so its min raise all the way

[gatso]

Oh. Well in that case:

a) Shoot the dealer
b) Give the player his 1500 back
c) Find a spade
d) Dig a suitable hole behind the casino
e) Put body into hole
f) Fill hole
g) Resume tournament

I agree with this though now we know the cards were mucked by the dealer

[kinboshi]

What were the blinds?  I'd make him raise the minimum.  So depending on that card rooms policy, either make his bet 4,000 total or twice the initial raise.  So if blinds were 300-600 for example, the UTG raise is 1400, so I'd make the guy put in 3,400.

It's his fault if he hasn't noticed there's been a raise.  So once he announces raise he's obligated to raise.

this, he has announced raise so its min raise all the way

Even if he says raise after he's thrown the chips in?

[WarBwastard]

What were the blinds?  I'd make him raise the minimum.  So depending on that card rooms policy, either make his bet 4,000 total or twice the initial raise.  So if blinds were 300-600 for example, the UTG raise is 1400, so I'd make the guy put in 3,400.

It's his fault if he hasn't noticed there's been a raise.  So once he announces raise he's obligated to raise.

this, he has announced raise so its min raise all the way

Even if he says raise after he's thrown the chips in?

His intention to raise is obvious enough here that I'd make him min raise.

[phatomch]

it was only the consensus that he threw the chips in before announcing raise, if you can say deffo either way it can change the ruling.

if not its a simple call

[Cf]

utg raises to 2k. mp then throws in 1500. htf is that not a call? you want to give him the option to fold or raise now? wtf? have you flipped? or maybe I have? I really don't know anymore

He said raise as he was throwing the chips in though. So there's 2 things we can do:

Let him reconsider his action. I'd do this. (There's then the issue of does he get chips back if he folds, but lets ignore that)
or
Hold him to a min raise.

Obviously if he just throws 3x500 in with no verbal it's a call.