Is this a shove?

[Simon Galloway]

I was sweating a friend in-game and his opponents were very tight and neither had a move in their bodies.  As he folded his button, I said "I probably would have shoved it aginst these two - wiz won't like it but I do."
Anyway, we wiz'd it and even tightening their ranges right up it was neutral at best.  So, shove or fold against 2 lumps of granite?

Full Tilt Poker Game #13853643310: $6 + 0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) (102187124), Table 1 - 300/600 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:07:21 ET - 2009/08/06
Seat 4: Hero (6,710)
Seat 5: ONoffON (2,250)
Seat 9: longhands (4,540)
ONoffON posts the small blind of 300
longhands posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [ ]
Hero folds
ONoffON raises to 2,250, and is all in
longhands folds
Uncalled bet of 1,650 returned to ONoffON
ONoffON mucks
ONoffON wins the pot (1,200)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1,200 | Rake 0
Seat 4: Hero (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: ONoffON (small blind) collected (1,200), mucked
Seat 9: longhands (big blind) folded before the Flop

[GreekStein]

i shove

[Longy]

This is one of those spots where taking a -ev spot is fine as we lose all our fold equity in our stack after this hand, in fact as long as the bb isn't a reg or someone likely to look you up super light I am always shoving here.

[Simon Galloway]

This is one of those spots where taking a -ev spot is fine as we lose all our fold equity in our stack after this hand, in fact as long as the bb isn't a reg or someone likely to look you up super light I am always shoving here.

we've got the big stack Mark.  And the way this was playing out, the other two still had plenty of passes in them...

[gatso]

I like the shove here but think it's close

[boldie]

I don't mind passing this every now and again. the calling range for ONoffON should be pretty wide anyways..passing this every now and again means he's not leaving the game just yet and we cna shove again next round.

[Longy]

This is one of those spots where taking a -ev spot is fine as we lose all our fold equity in our stack after this hand, in fact as long as the bb isn't a reg or someone likely to look you up super light I am always shoving here.

we've got the big stack Mark.  And the way this was playing out, the other two still had plenty of passes in them...

Yeah misread the hh.

On 2nd viewing I don't really like the shove, though it does depend on your image. My image is normally shot to pieces by this point so I shy away from making shoves that are at best neutral ev.

[MANTIS01]

It does depend on your image to an extent, I mean if you've been hyper-aggressive you can fold this because your oppos are gearing up to call you light. But if you have a decent image it's the image of your oppos that becomes relevant. We know they have an inclination to fold, and the stack dynamics present us with a good opportunity to exploit that. We are on top and should press our advantage. I think folding takes our foot of the gas at the crucial time and there isn't really any firm evidence to support that strategy. sb will fold and push the button often enough imo. Pushing is a better gamble than folding if we want to win this.

[LuckyLloyd]

When it's this close, just get them in. Your assumptions can always be a little off (due to people running good / bad over small sample sizes), and it doesn't take much error either way to make folding / shoving good / bad.

[nirvana]

Yes

[Simon Galloway]

Yes

Is everything a shove?

[LuckyLloyd]

Yes

Is everything a shove?

When stacks are this short and it's three handed, a loooooooot of things are.

[Simon Galloway]

Yes

Is everything a shove?

When stacks are this short and it's three handed, a loooooooot of things are.

Oh I agree, I was advocating the shove in the first place.  It was a comment for Nirvana who uses his patented forumla:


If wine consumed >2 and  opponent luckbox factor <0.99 and cardroom = Luton then SHOVE, ELSE shove.

[nirvana]

Yes

Is everything a shove?

When stacks are this short and it's three handed, a loooooooot of things are.

Oh I agree, I was advocating the shove in the first place.  It was a comment for Nirvana who uses his patented forumla:


If wine consumed >2 and  opponent luckbox factor <0.99 and cardroom = Luton then SHOVE, ELSE shove.

I think opponent luckbox factor is key here, against you and Sicilan I shove all day long - against a number of other luckier players I can't make the move

[Lucky]

Yes

Is everything a shove?

When stacks are this short and it's three handed, a loooooooot of things are.

Oh I agree, I was advocating the shove in the first place.  It was a comment for Nirvana who uses his patented forumla:


If wine consumed >2 and  opponent luckbox factor <0.99 and cardroom = Luton then SHOVE, ELSE shove.

I think opponent luckbox factor is key here, against you and Sicilan I shove all day long - against a number of other luckier players I can't make the move

I love the scientific analysis!

Alan / Lucky / don't shove against me !