Getting in the money

[Kid]

Hi,

I'm just after some advice with regards to the above. I've been reading the forum for a few weeks now and it seems Tikay is the one with the most experience of finishing on the bubble (sorry!) so I was wondering what his thoughts are on this? Personally, I've been playing online for a little over 6 months and, after a not too expensive learning period, have started to do well in cash games. However, in tourneys I've managed to win one (somehow) and get a couple of money finishes but more often than not end up just outside the cash. I know a lot of it is about timing and luck (to an extent) but any advice would be appreciated. Apologies if this is something you have discussed before.

Thanks

[Kid]

Sorry if that sounded like I only wanted Tikay's advice - advice from as many people as possible would be very helpful!

[tikay]

Hi Kid,

Wish I knew the answer!

I try to avoid giving poker advice (easy to guess why) but I suppose I am the bubble expert........

Two things.

Stack size. If you reach the sharp end of a tourney - say last 10 to 15 - then big confrontations are necessary. If you have plenty of chips, you can survive losing them. If you are low-stacked - as I often am - you cant. Simple as that. So the key is to have enough chips at that stage to survive a few defeats.

Luck.

You cant make Finals without a bit of luck. I played 2 comps at the Sheffield Festival this week.

On Thursday, I got all-in when there were about 16 left with A-Q & somehow lost to Q-3. Nothing I can do about that, but if I'd had more chips, I could have survived of course.

On Friday, I DID have plenty of chips, way above average, with 17 players left. I decided to make a stand with JJ against Ali Mallu because I was sure I was ahead, & all the chips went in pre-flop. He had AQ, & won the "race" by hitting - 3 times!

And in the 1,000 Main Event in Barcelona last Saturday, I was in the semi-final, average chips, & made a stand with AK against 55. I lost the "race".

I would probably play all three hands the same way given the chance. At Sheffield I went in ahead each time, & came out last. In Barcelona I tried it the other way round - & still lost!

So, try & not let your stack get too low. But you still need to win your "races", & that's a luck thing, not a skill thing.

Keep believing, & Good Luck

By the way, welcome to blonde.

[Kid]

Thanks Tikay.

Seems I am on the right lines then. Hopefully I'll start to win more races - especially the ones where I start in the lead! I realise these things even out over time. As long as I keep finishing there or there abouts at the end then the money finishes will hopefully become more frequent. For you as well I hope!

[tikay]

Well put Kid, & thank you.

Camel reckons he has not lost an even money shot for 10 years. Bushy reckons his even money shots work out at 15%-85%.

But I am in the same camp as you - they even out over time.

Good Luck, & keep us informed of your progress, please.

[TightEnd]

I find that these things are a bit cyclical...you go for ages losing the key confrontations and then you hit a bit of form and then there's no stopping you.

It's been a bit like that for me. Friday's 250 at Luton had me reach the final chipped up having won with A10 vs JJ, AK vs QQ and 1010 vs AQ...never for all of my chips but twice for all the opponents. Three months ago I could assure you that I would have been crippled by one of these

Come the final however I had AK three times on the trot and lost all, to JJ, 55 and 88 to exit in 8th, frustrated, but that's the way it goes. But I'd play it the same way every time and would have won the lot if 2 of 3 had held up I feel, I was playing that well...by my standards

I had your problem for ages...going out consistently 10th to 15th and gradually in small buy in tournaments experimented with consciously keeping my stack above the level where I only had one move left-all in-by developing moves and semi-moves earlier on (and working on the instinct required to do this on the right board to the right player at the right time) designed to keep me going until the premium hands that played themselves came along...my tightish image developed over several months allowed me to do this and it worked, although it didn't come naturally at first...the result? six final tables in the last month and a profitable run.

Now of course the tightish image is disappearing....cue some thought about refining the strategy!

Always trying to learn!

[RED-DOG]

Hi kid, this is not to offer advice as such, Im not qualified, but to say welcome to the fourm and to offer an opinion

As I see it there are many ways to play this game, I know some excellent players who play very loose, and others who play very tight, you have to play the type of game suits you, but you can try to incorporate aspects from other peoples game and so improve your own

I've had the privlige of sharing a table with Mr Carlo Citrone on a couple of occasions just latley, Carlo has great presence at the table, he seems to hover over it like a hawk, seeing everything, waiting to pounce. He does this thing where he becomes motionless and goes into a long, long dwell as he replays the action in his mind, then when he acts I find it easy to believe that he knows everything and can see right through me

On the other hand, Kieth The Camel Hawkins sits there as if poker is the last thing on his mind, dosnt interupt his conversation as he raises/calls with rubbish. But watch out, Camels may look like beasts of burden but they can be very dangerous, and you try putting one on a hand

Good players seem to have a strong basic game of a type that suits them, and the ability to modify it to suit the situation, and that comes from experience as much as anything

I think learning about poker is learning about yourself, working on your strengths and weaknesses

One last thing, try to keep it in perspective, enjoy the game for what it is, good and bad, you will meet some of the nicest people in the world and certainly some of the most interesting, It isnt all about money and winning and losing

Good Luck, Tom.

[ifm]

My tuppence. 
Aggressiveness is really the only way, to a point.
You will see people raising every other hand and you will see people raising every other round, ask yourself who has the most chips?
I wait to see who is the aggressive player on my table and if there isn't one it's me!!!
If there is an aggressive player then i just waittill i get a good hand and get 'em all in against him/her.
Races are unavoidable and there is the luck bit really, i played on friday and player 1 raises the pot, all fold to me who reraises, player 3 behind me goes all in, player 1 folds and i call.
I have 10's player 3 has 8's, first card 8  then 5 5 5 and river...............10!! 
The best play here was player 1, he folded AQ because he knew he was in trouble and that is the hardest thing to learn, throwing away hands.
Time and again you see folks go out because they raise, get reraised and can't fold.
A fella the other week raised with A5 off suit, got reraised massively and called!!!! what did he think he could beat?
So there's a basic strategy for ya, don't be afraid to get 'em all in when your short stacked and don't believe it's your responsibility to knock players out when your big stacked.
Ian

[AdamM]

I'm a pretty tight player so I've had to get good at bubble play. let me explain why. If you're playing in a looseaggressive game like a 20/30 rebuy at your local casino or a $5/$10 MTT online (excluding turbo's and speeds) you can elect to play tight, wait for a couple of big hands and let the aggressive players bet them for you. Works a treat unless,
a) you don't get enough big hands or
b) your trap works but you either get out drawn or are up against another big hand.
if this happens your tight game back fires and you might end up battling for survival on the bubble.
I find the trick is not to panic and be too keen to throw your chips in. say final is top 10 and there's two tables left.  you need to know how many other short stacks there are. if there's 10 stack of 20,000+ and you have 2000 then you may as well stick them in with any half decent hand. more likely though, there'll be a couple of big stacks on each table, a couple of medium stacks and at least one other short stack. although it tightens up on hte bubble it's still likely that the medium stacks might clash with each other but avoid tangling with the bigger stacks. They don't want to end up in your position after all. the big stacks, if they're any good, will be taking advantage of this tight phase to steal alot of small pots in preperation for the final. there's always the possibility of a big hands v big hand situation between them . basically I'd say try and wait for a pocket pair, medium to high Ace or two cards J or higher and get the first raise in. I wouldn't be calling all in with any of the above except for high Ace or medium to high pair. because they're avoiding the situations above players are unlikely to be raisng with trash (except for really loose chip leaders but you'll be aware of them already)
Most people rightly point out that if you're playing to win the tourney, finaling in 10th with 1 round of blinds is not the way to go about it. However, if I'm in 10th or 11th on the bubble I already know I'm having a bad night and finalling at all is a nice recovery. If you're playing tight you've probably not had many buy-ins so 9th or 10th will give you your money back so the final is basically a free roll. Why not resign yourself to that, take your money back and enter another tourney with it. better than deciding to go for the win and crashing out in 11th with 8,9 suited because you've decided to go for it. and running into A2 and missing. your next hand might have been A10 and got a loose call from a King High.

[Kid]

Thanks all, some great advice there (I hope!). Definitely some aspects I can work into my own game and hopefully see some improved finishes. Also, some good advice about not getting too hung up on the money finishes (as nice as they are) and still enjoying the game - thanks Tom.

I'll keep you posted on any progress.

[tikay]

There you go Kid, a nice variety of responses for you. You are a member of a very special club now - the blondeites - & you will meet therm in tourneys all over the UK & Europe.

Do keep us informed, I know that all the guys that have offered advice will be keen to hear how you get on.

[ariston]

When you get towards the bubble alot of people tend to slow down and try and get into the money, if you can spot and pressurise these players you have a real shot at winning the tournament with plenty of players still left in. You will have to be aware pf people with similar ideas as yourself however who may put resteal after resteal on you.
You may risk bubbling a few times but overall it is better to win 1 time and bubble 9 times than to finish just in the money 10 times.
Pick your slots carefully and battle stack sizes not neccessarily cards or opponents. Against a big stack they may be the one to put you to the test by reraising you, against a small stack they may be forced to call for their last few chips on pot odds with allsorts of holdings.
Tikay doesnt bubble all the time with the standard AK v QQ type hands, quite often he is making a move or trying to improve his position while others are busy looking at the prize structures. The best players take advantage of the table conditions (eg 5 players rocking up) thats why he bubbles alot IMO.