Obligatory shove despite bad card hitting?

[MC]

$16 18man 1st level


I remember increasing my standard turn bet (above table-ninja presets) because I felt he had a flush draw and wanted to give him the wrong odds to chase.

Now the flush card hits. It seems unlikely that he has an Ace the way he's played it and with 3 of the 4 being tied up.

Should I ever check the river if my read is him to have a flush, or is my hand just too strong? Does he open shove the river with the flush, rather than checking, enough of the time to make anything other than a shove wrong here?


***** Hand History for Game 32304499300 ***** (Poker Stars)
Tourney Hand NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, September 01, 10:10:24 ET 2009
Table 191789121 2 (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: ruutus ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 2: Pa3yM ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 3: quack2quack2 ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 4: prokot ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 5: ELCRAC67 ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 6: Ä$$eerr20 ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 7: crash_pkr ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 8: epitomised ( $1500.00 USD )
Seat 9: alprausch ( $1500.00 USD )
Pa3yM posts small blind [$10.00 USD].
quack2quack2 posts big blind [$20.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to epitomised [  As ]
prokot folds
ELCRAC67 calls [$20.00 USD]
Ä$$eerr20 calls [$20.00 USD]
crash_pkr folds
epitomised raises [$80.00 USD]
alprausch folds
ruutus folds
Pa3yM folds
quack2quack2 folds
ELCRAC67 calls [$60.00 USD]
Ä$$eerr20 calls [$60.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]
ELCRAC67 bets [$120.00 USD]
Ä$$eerr20 folds
epitomised calls [$120.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ ]
ELCRAC67 checks
epitomised bets [$380.00 USD]
ELCRAC67 calls [$380.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ ]
ELCRAC67 checks
epitomised

[titaniumbean]

Ugh do we have no reads?

Lets face it he's limp called utg, donked then c/c and checked.


Instant thoughts are why no flop raise of the donk. And how bad is he if he is limp calling pre? I'd most likely bet fold the river.

Why did you flat the flop?

As played it's early so you could check back, I think you probably have to shove (its 900 into 1200 right) at this BI though, I just dont get the flop play readless.

Also check your PMS pls. ta.

[Longy]

Yeah i like a value shove on the end, given he has donked the flop I would expect to probably donk a flush on the river a certain % of the time.

I don't mind calling as we can still get our stack by the river, this is coming from someone who belives in pure straight up bang,bang value betting in sngs.

[MC]

Why did you flat the flop?

Because I have the nuts and it's fairly unlikely he has a hand that can face a raise.

Why do we need to raise just cos there's a flush draw? We flat if it's a rainbow surely.

[gatso]

I don't like the pf raise size with 2 limpers

[titaniumbean]

Yeah i like a value shove on the end, given he has donked the flop I would expect to probably donk a flush on the river a certain % of the time.

I don't mind calling as we can still get our stack by the river, this is coming from someone who belives in pure straight up bang,bang value betting in sngs.

Why would you call against someone readless though? With history and or knowledge of how someone plays i'd love flatting the flop but now we seem to have no idea what makes up his range for donking and c/c the turn.

I agree completely that once he has a donk line and IF he does that with a flush he will bet/jam the flush on the river some % of the time so I think we have to bet.

I think i'd only be flatting maybe 20-35% of the time here.

Because I have the nuts and it's fairly unlikely he has a hand that can face a raise.

Why do we need to raise just cos there's a flush draw? We flat if it's a rainbow surely.

You're not talking to a complete and utterretard. We flat both wet and dry flops with some frequency.

Why would I raise a reg on a dry board with top set? for the same reason I check it back versus a fish.

Do I flat a regs donk more often than a fish on a draw heavy board? yes.

Why?

Because I don't believe the fish has such a well built up donking range as the reg and the reg is more likely to try to barrel me.

Here the only information is limp/call in early then take a really unusual line, he's more likely to be bad imo. So he's leading the board either to take away the cbet kinda thing  (bet folding by accident essentially) or cos his cards are pretty, if his cards are pretty do we not think we get more value by raising, whereas against a regs more polarized and better made up range we do better getting most money in on the turn.

[mondatoo]

Ugh do we have no reads?

Lets face it he's limp called utg, donked then c/c and checked.


Instant thoughts are why no flop raise of the donk. And how bad is he if he is limp calling pre? I'd most likely bet fold the river.

Why did you flat the flop?

As played it's early so you could check back, I think you probably have to shove (its 900 into 1200 right) at this BI though, I just dont get the flop play readless.

Also check your PMS pls. ta.

Could we really make this play with 1/3 of our stack already in there ?

I am one of the remaining members of the 3xing it pre brigade so wondered why you raised so small pre with limpers but guess this is your standard raise yeah,might get round to starting a thread on 2.5x pre vs 3x pre, i hear moorman 3x's pre so i'm glad to know i'm right

I like flatting the flop as his bet looks so weak i'm happy to give him a free card to let him hang himself

Turn he defintly plays it like a draw

River Shove FTW here imo

[titaniumbean]

Ugh do we have no reads?

Lets face it he's limp called utg, donked then c/c and checked.


Instant thoughts are why no flop raise of the donk. And how bad is he if he is limp calling pre? I'd most likely bet fold the river.

Why did you flat the flop?

As played it's early so you could check back, I think you probably have to shove (its 900 into 1200 right) at this BI though, I just dont get the flop play readless.

Also check your PMS pls. ta.

Could we really make this play with 1/3 of our stack already in there ?

I am one of the remaining members of the 3xing it pre brigade so wondered why you raised so small pre with limpers but guess this is your standard raise yeah,might get round to starting a thread on 2.5x pre vs 3x pre, i hear moorman 3x's pre so i'm glad to know i'm right

I like flatting the flop as his bet looks so weak i'm happy to give him a free card to let him hang himself

Turn he defintly plays it like a draw

River Shove FTW here imo

Wat missed that called turn 'as a draw'?

How often if we bet are we then being bluffed?

If im betting im shoving here fwiw but I hate the way people think that every option isnt an option.


did you know MOORMAN bet folded for 99% of his stack once therefore its a good play.??

[Longy]

@ Titaniumbean

Regarding flatting the flop, early in sngs our raising range is quite small. On ace high flops i like flatting just about all of our range, as it fits with just about all of our range (ax,aa-jj). Even donks play differently on ace high boards to other type of boards.

I think we get an extra bet on the turn a lot more in this spot by calling from the marginal parts of villians range and i am not worried that we won't get to felt the strong parts of his range.

[gatso]

I am one of the remaining members of the 3xing it pre brigade so wondered why you raised so small pre with limpers but guess this is your standard raise yeah,might get round to starting a thread on 2.5x pre vs 3x pre, i hear moorman 3x's pre so i'm glad to know i'm right

err, no you're not. 99% of us 3x it early on

[titaniumbean]

@ Titaniumbean

Regarding flatting the flop, early in sngs our raising range is quite small. On ace high flops i like flatting just about all of our range, as it fits with just about all of our range (ax,aa-jj). Even donks play differently on ace high boards to other type of boards.

I think we get an extra bet on the turn a lot more in this spot by calling from the marginal parts of villians range and i am not worried that we won't get to felt the strong parts of his range.

Right thank you that's a very well put point.

How does it change being a reg in your eyes then?

And i'd be right in saying that early you are looking to stack the fishiest of fishies, here seems a good spot. Along your same vein surely he has a pretty narrow donk range and it surely depends on how much of that narrow range he is bet/continuing with?

[mondatoo]

I am one of the remaining members of the 3xing it pre brigade so wondered why you raised so small pre with limpers but guess this is your standard raise yeah,might get round to starting a thread on 2.5x pre vs 3x pre, i hear moorman 3x's pre so i'm glad to know i'm right

err, no you're not. 99% of us 3x it early on

Threads i've noticed have all been in mtts just seemed like everyone always just 2.5x it now

[gatso]

I am one of the remaining members of the 3xing it pre brigade so wondered why you raised so small pre with limpers but guess this is your standard raise yeah,might get round to starting a thread on 2.5x pre vs 3x pre, i hear moorman 3x's pre so i'm glad to know i'm right

err, no you're not. 99% of us 3x it early on

Threads i've noticed have all been in mtts just seemed like everyone always just 2.5x it now

not on level 1

most are 2.5xing it once antes kick in, or sometimes at about the 50/100 level

[Longy]

How does it change being a reg in your eyes then?

And i'd be right in saying that early you are looking to stack the fishiest of fishies, here seems a good spot. Along your same vein surely he has a pretty narrow donk range and it surely depends on how much of that narrow range he is bet/continuing with?

With good regs, there donking range is extremely tight here. I don't see them having aj, or kq diamonds for example here. They are pretty much bluffing never here and I don't think they would expect me to flat qq and kk.

On that basis I would probably actually raise and just get it in. As pretty much my only worry is a card coming off on the turn to scare them.

Reg vs reg spots play totally different in sngs early than pretty much any form of poker, as it is pretty much accepted that is not worth screwing around with each other as losing your stack early is a lot worse than doubling up.

Given MC doesn't recognise this guy all of the above doesn't apply to this particular hand imo.

[mondatoo]

Ugh do we have no reads?

Lets face it he's limp called utg, donked then c/c and checked.


Instant thoughts are why no flop raise of the donk. And how bad is he if he is limp calling pre? I'd most likely bet fold the river.

Why did you flat the flop?

As played it's early so you could check back, I think you probably have to shove (its 900 into 1200 right) at this BI though, I just dont get the flop play readless.

Also check your PMS pls. ta.

Could we really make this play with 1/3 of our stack already in there ?

I am one of the remaining members of the 3xing it pre brigade so wondered why you raised so small pre with limpers but guess this is your standard raise yeah,might get round to starting a thread on 2.5x pre vs 3x pre, i hear moorman 3x's pre so i'm glad to know i'm right

I like flatting the flop as his bet looks so weak i'm happy to give him a free card to let him hang himself

Turn he defintly plays it like a draw

River Shove FTW here imo

Wat missed that called turn 'as a draw'?

How often if we bet are we then being bluffed?

If im betting im shoving here fwiw but I hate the way people think that every option isnt an option.


did you know MOORMAN bet folded for 99% of his stack once therefore its a good play.??

He seems pretty tez and i'm just suggesting he plays it like a draw but still think we are right to shove for % of time we do have the best hand vs such opponent.

As to how often are we being bluffed i ain't bet folding here ,i don't play sngs much so maybe longy or another sng master can correct me if i'm wrong on that.

And yes that is a good play if moorman did it