The dealer liked it

[ALASKAN5IVE]

surely leading here is worse than checking..... leading takes out all his c betting range with 76 sheets already in the middle plus hands that crush you still get it in, but you may be playing alot bigger pot down the streets etc, plus if the original raiser is half decent....... gg

[Sam Proffitt]

I play this game at DTD a fair bit and there is one inalienable truth: If you show any weakness you will get bet into and they will not give up when they miss.
 
Most of these players arent particularly good or thinking over several streets but if you act weak they will try betting you off a hand 100% of the time.

When you check the turn he is firing literally 100% of his range and he is also floating you on the flop with a massive range; almost never are you behind.

I think the main problem is that you lead the flop not knowing what you want to do on the turn and check when the diamond hits as scared and trying to keep the pot small too obviously. Do you really think an aggro player who has 3bet pre is not going to rr you when he flops a fd?

However, If youre playing well I would check the turn specifically looking to get a bet as it gives him the impetus to try and futily represent and there is no way he ever has a flush here, you can even c/c planning to get another street of value from the river on the same line but it is obv risky as youre going to get outdrawn sometimes and you really have to be confident that you can make the big call.

ps: when you 'define' your hand as something like top pair, they are always going to try and bet you off it so its quite nonsenical imo as youre going to valuetown when youre beat and put yourself in a really tough spot when youre not.

[titaniumbean]

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

[Pyso]

I play this game at DTD a fair bit and there is one inalienable truth: If you show any weakness you will get bet into and they will not give up when they miss.
 
Most of these players arent particularly good or thinking over several streets but if you act weak they will try betting you off a hand 100% of the time.

When you check the turn he is firing literally 100% of his range and he is also floating you on the flop with a massive range; almost never are you behind.

I think the main problem is that you lead the flop not knowing what you want to do on the turn and check when the diamond hits as scared and trying to keep the pot small too obviously. Do you really think an aggro player who has 3bet pre is not going to rr you when he flops a fd?

However, If youre playing well I would check the turn specifically looking to get a bet as it gives him the impetus to try and futily represent and there is no way he ever has a flush here, you can even c/c planning to get another street of value from the river on the same line but it is obv risky as youre going to get outdrawn sometimes and you really have to be confident that you can make the big call.

ps: when you 'define' your hand as something like top pair, they are always going to try and bet you off it so its quite nonsenical imo as youre going to valuetown when youre beat and put yourself in a really tough spot when youre not.

Thanks Sam, some nice analysis and I agree with your description of the average £1/£2 player at DTD. I took the line I did to keep the pot down a bit and to get him to represent into me.

I didn't like being out of position much, so given the dynamics of the player and the game I felt that this was the best way of proceeding.

Perhaps my lead on the flop was a bit of a stab in the dark but if I check he is betting 100% of the time and this doesn't tell  me much, although this becomes irrelevant if I had decided to check/raise all-in anyway.

I actually thought to myself that I didn't mind telling him I had a queen, in fact I thought it was desirable because my read of the player (and his huge stack) was that he would likely use his position and try to bet me off the hand.

I can see now that I had other options. This is why I posted, to get some other ideas.

[titaniumbean]

Checking the flop widens his range more than leading out into multiple players does.

[Pyso]

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

Thanks Andy,

I agree his raise preflop doesn't mean a lot given the straddles, which was a strong reason I didn't give him credit for much.
I did think about check/raising all-in but felt that he would just pass with sh1t and obviously call with a big draw or better hand. Maybe I'm conservative but I prefer seeing all streets and controlling the size of the pot. I am confident enough to do this although of course I don't always get it right.

..and I didn't raise pre-flop purely because of my terrible position (which is far more important than my cards) and because also my holding would be well disguised should it hit.

The straddlers both had less than me, the 3-bettor had more than me and the button had about the same as me. I took the button call as quite a wide range too until he let me know otherwise, so to begin with, I felt I was leading out into the 3-bettor, which is the way it turned out as it happened.

[titaniumbean]

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

Thanks Andy,

I agree his raise preflop doesn't mean a lot given the straddles, which was a strong reason I didn't give him credit for much.
I did think about check/raising all-in but felt that he would just pass with sh1t and obviously call with a big draw or better hand. Maybe I'm conservative but I prefer seeing all streets and controlling the size of the pot. I am confident enough to do this although of course I don't always get it right.

..and I didn't raise pre-flop purely because of my terrible position (which is far more important than my cards) and because also my holding would be well disguised should it hit.

The straddlers both had less than me, the 3-bettor had more than me and the button had about the same as me. I took the button call as quite a wide range too until he let me know otherwise, so to begin with, I felt I was leading out into the 3-bettor, which is the way it turned out as it happened.

Ya Sb is sucky, and i'd be folding a hell of a lot there.

I think you should have a thought about what the straddle does to stack sizes and why betting a draw heavy board multiway to pot control isn't the best idea. As it is we are 60 blinds deep ish and have top tops against wide ranges. I'm not saying c/rai because we prob have best hand, c/rai because a) they fold their crap which is what we want because we dont have to realise our equity or b) they call it off with worse and we are ahead. Betting and then c/c'ing down when the main draw hits is leaving ourself open to being pwned esp considering it works if he doesn't bet half the pot each time lol.

edit id also rr prob some proportion because no one understands the straddle or how to play it lol. The number of people who limp fold on straddle hands boggles my mind.

[Pyso]

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

Thanks Andy,

I agree his raise preflop doesn't mean a lot given the straddles, which was a strong reason I didn't give him credit for much.
I did think about check/raising all-in but felt that he would just pass with sh1t and obviously call with a big draw or better hand. Maybe I'm conservative but I prefer seeing all streets and controlling the size of the pot. I am confident enough to do this although of course I don't always get it right.

..and I didn't raise pre-flop purely because of my terrible position (which is far more important than my cards) and because also my holding would be well disguised should it hit.

The straddlers both had less than me, the 3-bettor had more than me and the button had about the same as me. I took the button call as quite a wide range too until he let me know otherwise, so to begin with, I felt I was leading out into the 3-bettor, which is the way it turned out as it happened.

Ya Sb is sucky, and i'd be folding a hell of a lot there.

I think you should have a thought about what the straddle does to stack sizes and why betting a draw heavy board multiway to pot control isn't the best idea. As it is we are 60 blinds deep ish and have top tops against wide ranges. I'm not saying c/rai because we prob have best hand, c/rai because a) they fold their crap which is what we want because we dont have to realise our equity or b) they call it off with worse and we are ahead. Betting and then c/c'ing down when the main draw hits is leaving ourself open to being pwned esp considering it works if he doesn't bet half the pot each time lol.

edit id also rr prob some proportion because no one understands the straddle or how to play it lol. The number of people who limp fold on straddle hands boggles my mind.

I see your point, I suppose this time I was fortunate to snap off his bluff; but against a better player with bigger minerals it might not have been so easy...Still, I don't think my line is without merit. The beauty of poker is that there is more than one way to get the job done. On reflection, checking may have been a better option. Still, I posted to get a few more lines, so it's all good.

I don't understand straddling, full stop. Lol. It just seems so pointless. But I love being on a table when others are doing it....happy days...

[titaniumbean]

What is there to understand??


Blinds are 1/2 stack off 400. = 200 x big blind.

Blinds are 1/2/4/8 stack of 400/ = 50 x big blind.

You'd play these two stacks differently in a tourny right?

When someone straddles to 8 there is now 15 in the pot not 3. so initially stealing the pot is of much greater value. Similarly alot of morons limp in on the straddle without the plan of lrr and then have to fold to a raise which is just donating dead money in the pot. Just straddle with a tight image and when either the whole table limps in just pump it and bet the flop or jam it in peopls eyes with AA!!

Straddling is a great way to give off the image of being loose without costing yourself that many bbs and without you having to act first pre.

[titaniumbean]

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

Thanks Andy,

I agree his raise preflop doesn't mean a lot given the straddles, which was a strong reason I didn't give him credit for much.
I did think about check/raising all-in but felt that he would just pass with sh1t and obviously call with a big draw or better hand. Maybe I'm conservative but I prefer seeing all streets and controlling the size of the pot. I am confident enough to do this although of course I don't always get it right.

..and I didn't raise pre-flop purely because of my terrible position (which is far more important than my cards) and because also my holding would be well disguised should it hit.

The straddlers both had less than me, the 3-bettor had more than me and the button had about the same as me. I took the button call as quite a wide range too until he let me know otherwise, so to begin with, I felt I was leading out into the 3-bettor, which is the way it turned out as it happened.

Ya Sb is sucky, and i'd be folding a hell of a lot there.

I think you should have a thought about what the straddle does to stack sizes and why betting a draw heavy board multiway to pot control isn't the best idea. As it is we are 60 blinds deep ish and have top tops against wide ranges. I'm not saying c/rai because we prob have best hand, c/rai because a) they fold their crap which is what we want because we dont have to realise our equity or b) they call it off with worse and we are ahead. Betting and then c/c'ing down when the main draw hits is leaving ourself open to being pwned esp considering it works if he doesn't bet half the pot each time lol.

edit id also rr prob some proportion because no one understands the straddle or how to play it lol. The number of people who limp fold on straddle hands boggles my mind.

I see your point, I suppose this time I was fortunate to snap off his bluff; but against a better player with bigger minerals it might not have been so easy...

Still, I don't think my line is without merit. The beauty of poker is that there is more than one way to get the job done.

Poker has no correct answers is one thing to say, re bigger minerals = not so easy. I think you are upside down on this. Without a read on a player i'm not likely to be trying to c/c down when the draw hits and pick off a bluff, with the knowledge that a player is capable of bluffing im much more likely to call down. What I mean is in some spots against good players you can often have a very easy call whereas with no information and/or against different people it may just be an easy fold.


I'm honestly not that sure what merits your line on the flop has really except for stopping it checking around. Straddle pots again are by definition alot bigger and so people (correctly) go after them alot more so I wouldn't worry too much on that wet of a board about it getting checked round. If you are truly just trying to make the best most +EV decision on every street then I think that you have to start by checking the flop, how are you going to react if you are raised by the preflop raiser or anyone else?

[Pyso]

What is there to understand??


Blinds are 1/2 stack off 400. = 200 x big blind.

Blinds are 1/2/4/8 stack of 400/ = 50 x big blind.

You'd play these two stacks differently in a tourny right?

When someone straddles to 8 there is now 15 in the pot not 3. so initially stealing the pot is of much greater value. Similarly alot of morons limp in on the straddle without the plan of lrr and then have to fold to a raise which is just donating dead money in the pot. Just straddle with a tight image and when either the whole table limps in just pump it and bet the flop or jam it in peopls eyes with AA!!

Straddling is a great way to give off the image of being loose without costing yourself that many bbs and without you having to act first pre.

Re: straddling, I understand what people are trying to do, but I don't think it is +ev in the long run. The amount of times I see players having to lay down a straddle, or make a daft call because of 'pot odds' only to play the whole hand out of position, or hit the flop but not as hard as the player who had a better hand to begin with,...I could go on...

For someone like me, straddling won't fool anyone, I am very tight (with regards to position) so within half an hour the whole table will know this.

I love playing with straddlers though for the reasons you mentioned. I get the best of both worlds by not straddling on a straddle happy table. It also means I have a super tight image when I refuse to straddle and then get MASSES of respect when I do run a bluff later on.

[Pyso]

So its 1/2/4/8 and its opened to 18? That's not a reraise it's just an open pre.

Why lead the flop with no idea for other streets with the way the straddles play i'd just c/ship it in on the flop. On the turn you think the pot size is getting out of control yet you lead the flop for 2/3 pot. The turn bet is tiny so you have to c/c at least and once he bets that size on the river I cawl pretty quickly again.


Did we not think to reraise pre? What are everyone elses stack sizes and what are the stack sizes of the people who went to the flop?

Thanks Andy,

I agree his raise preflop doesn't mean a lot given the straddles, which was a strong reason I didn't give him credit for much.
I did think about check/raising all-in but felt that he would just pass with sh1t and obviously call with a big draw or better hand. Maybe I'm conservative but I prefer seeing all streets and controlling the size of the pot. I am confident enough to do this although of course I don't always get it right.

..and I didn't raise pre-flop purely because of my terrible position (which is far more important than my cards) and because also my holding would be well disguised should it hit.

The straddlers both had less than me, the 3-bettor had more than me and the button had about the same as me. I took the button call as quite a wide range too until he let me know otherwise, so to begin with, I felt I was leading out into the 3-bettor, which is the way it turned out as it happened.

Ya Sb is sucky, and i'd be folding a hell of a lot there.

I think you should have a thought about what the straddle does to stack sizes and why betting a draw heavy board multiway to pot control isn't the best idea. As it is we are 60 blinds deep ish and have top tops against wide ranges. I'm not saying c/rai because we prob have best hand, c/rai because a) they fold their crap which is what we want because we dont have to realise our equity or b) they call it off with worse and we are ahead. Betting and then c/c'ing down when the main draw hits is leaving ourself open to being pwned esp considering it works if he doesn't bet half the pot each time lol.

edit id also rr prob some proportion because no one understands the straddle or how to play it lol. The number of people who limp fold on straddle hands boggles my mind.

I see your point, I suppose this time I was fortunate to snap off his bluff; but against a better player with bigger minerals it might not have been so easy...

Still, I don't think my line is without merit. The beauty of poker is that there is more than one way to get the job done.

Poker has no correct answers is one thing to say, re bigger minerals = not so easy. I think you are upside down on this. Without a read on a player i'm not likely to be trying to c/c down when the draw hits and pick off a bluff, with the knowledge that a player is capable of bluffing im much more likely to call down. What I mean is in some spots against good players you can often have a very easy call whereas with no information and/or against different people it may just be an easy fold.


I'm honestly not that sure what merits your line on the flop has really except for stopping it checking around. Straddle pots again are by definition alot bigger and so people (correctly) go after them alot more so I wouldn't worry too much on that wet of a board about it getting checked round. If you are truly just trying to make the best most +EV decision on every street then I think that you have to start by checking the flop, how are you going to react if you are raised by the preflop raiser or anyone else?

Equally, how am I going to react if I check and he bets the pot or even more? What do I do if I check and amazingly it gets checked round? Do I fire on the turn or check once more? Now the pot is smaller and I've given a free card to boot.

Surely by leading out, as well as defining opponents hands a little better, I also have the (admittedly small) possibility that I will induce folds?

Even if I check and he just c-bets I know less than if I lead and he just calls. The former tells me virtually nothing, the latter now suggests weakness but also gives me more info on the turn.

[titaniumbean]

What is there to understand??


Blinds are 1/2 stack off 400. = 200 x big blind.

Blinds are 1/2/4/8 stack of 400/ = 50 x big blind.

You'd play these two stacks differently in a tourny right?

When someone straddles to 8 there is now 15 in the pot not 3. so initially stealing the pot is of much greater value. Similarly alot of morons limp in on the straddle without the plan of lrr and then have to fold to a raise which is just donating dead money in the pot. Just straddle with a tight image and when either the whole table limps in just pump it and bet the flop or jam it in peopls eyes with AA!!

Straddling is a great way to give off the image of being loose without costing yourself that many bbs and without you having to act first pre.

Re: straddling, I understand what people are trying to do, but I don't think it is +ev in the long run. The amount of times I see players having to lay down a straddle, or make a daft call because of 'pot odds' only to play the whole hand out of position, or hit the flop but not as hard as the player who had a better hand to begin with,...I could go on...

For someone like me, straddling won't fool anyone, I am very tight (with regards to position) so within half an hour the whole table will know this.

I love playing with straddlers though for the reasons you mentioned. I get the best of both worlds by not straddling on a straddle happy table. It also means I have a super tight image when I refuse to straddle and then get MASSES of respect when I do run a bluff later on.

What's not +ev in the long run putting in an extra 2 bbs each orbit you mean that specifically? Because that itself isn't the ev bit, it's the benefits you gain from taking more dead money in the future and possibly getting more action because you look looser in peoples eyes. I dont know who you have been watching but just watch good players and not random people straddling because they want to play higher or because gambling is fun.

Why are you trying to save your image to run a bluff when you could be using your tight image to pick up a free 10-30 everytime you're utg.


If you dont straddle how do you play your utg. just raise and have everyone try and 2pr+ mine you?

There is a time and a place for every play style and that is when the table is playing the opposite having such restrictively tight tendencies will not only restrict your possibly winnings but make you alot easier to play against. It's very true the looser you play (assuming you are always thinking and trying to get better) the quicker you improve.

Also the straddle is very effective in the later stages of live games where the stacks have got stupidly deep.

[titaniumbean]

Equally, how am I going to react if I check and he bets the pot or even more?

You are going to think hmmm preflop what did I say to myself about who is the hand how deep they are and what ranges they will stack off with in certain spots. You're most likely reaction the is to either c/c or c/r if it's c/f fold pre.


What do I do if I check and amazingly it gets checked round? Do I fire on the turn or check once more? Now the pot is smaller and I've given a free card to boot.

You lead 2/3 pot and get 1 caller, someone has a draw they are making a PO mistake if they dont call. How is increasing the pot but possibly pricing people in when we are oop a better idea over checking and controlling the size of the pot. Lets face it we lead the flop 'to protect and for info' and we get called and the draw hits and we call down how is this good?

Surely by leading out, as well as defining opponents hands a little better, I also have the (admittedly small) possibility that I will induce folds?

You have lots of chances to induce folds, you also have the chance to get flatted and have a horrible stack to pot ratio.

Even if I check and he just c-bets I know less than if I lead and he just calls. The former tells me virtually nothing, the latter now suggests weakness but also gives me more info on the turn.

I disagree.

IF he is 'cbetting' then he has a proportion of his range that is air and that would have folded out anyway to a bet so we win money there.

IF he isn't that loose or going to be betting as a bluff very often then either your action preflop is bad or your turn and river calls are bad lol.
What do you actually know when he calls your lead. This is such a horrible hand to lead out with in this spot imo there are just so many gammy turn cards that either kill our action or make the hand very hard to play.

As I said before how were you planning on responding to a flop raise?

[Pyso]

Equally, how am I going to react if I check and he bets the pot or even more?

You are going to think hmmm preflop what did I say to myself about who is the hand how deep they are and what ranges they will stack off with in certain spots. You're most likely reaction the is to either c/c or c/r if it's c/f fold pre.


What do I do if I check and amazingly it gets checked round? Do I fire on the turn or check once more? Now the pot is smaller and I've given a free card to boot.

You lead 2/3 pot and get 1 caller, someone has a draw they are making a PO mistake if they dont call. How is increasing the pot but possibly pricing people in when we are oop a better idea over checking and controlling the size of the pot. Lets face it we lead the flop 'to protect and for info' and we get called and the draw hits and we call down how is this good?

Surely by leading out, as well as defining opponents hands a little better, I also have the (admittedly small) possibility that I will induce folds?

You have lots of chances to induce folds, you also have the chance to get flatted and have a horrible stack to pot ratio.

Even if I check and he just c-bets I know less than if I lead and he just calls. The former tells me virtually nothing, the latter now suggests weakness but also gives me more info on the turn.

I disagree.

IF he is 'cbetting' then he has a proportion of his range that is air and that would have folded out anyway to a bet so we win money there.

IF he isn't that loose or going to be betting as a bluff very often then either your action preflop is bad or your turn and river calls are bad lol.
What do you actually know when he calls your lead. This is such a horrible hand to lead out with in this spot imo there are just so many gammy turn cards that either kill our action or make the hand very hard to play.

As I said before how were you planning on responding to a flop raise?

Given his pointless raise pre-flop, if he raises my lead on the flop, I am re-raising. He is very unlikely to have KK or AA, more likely a big draw. A set would just be unlucky for me.

I hadn't mentioned this before now (and perhaps should have done) but my lead was me betting the best hand. I can't say how much I re-raise because we don't know how much he would raise me, but it would be close to all-in I would imagine.

My lead is the best of both worlds in some senses - I am betting the probable best hand and on this table with this player I can run with it, and I am betting into a player who may well float me and/or bluff me with position.

I know it seems like I am changing my tune, but your analysis has made me realise more why I leaned towards the lead rather than the check. Don't get me wrong however, there are plenty of times that I would check in this spot, I just chose not to on this occasion.

If my oppo bets more on the turn when the diamond hits I am probably out of there, a price I accept for being out of position and having taken the lead. If you think about it, this isn't much different to me checking, him betting a better amount, me calling an amount that could well be the same as my lead anyway, and then checking and folding when the diamond hits and he of course bets...