Any arguement not to flip here

[mondatoo]

Fold pre

wat are you talking about?

utg doesn't always just open shove.

Err what are you talking about ??

[BulldozerD]

i don't think i would fold pre

[mondatoo]

I don't make a habit of completing in the sb with soooted junk oop hoping to flop the nuts to get my money in.Seems like a leak to me.

[titaniumbean]

Shove them all in!

Absolute best case you have 21 outs! if up against AK non hearts.

Worst case you still have 6 outs.

I doubt he has AKno hearts and worst situation 6 outs is very bad.


God why does no one care about the action? just the fact our hand is strong against certain hands doesn't mean that we have necessarily good equity against the hands he takes this action with dependent on our reads on the person.

When utg doesn't open shove and bets any reasonable amount we can c/r and have FE and good equity when called. When we call ai we HAVE NO FE so must realise our pot equity, if he has a draw we don't like this situation. therefore we have to atleast consider reads and the way the betting has gone down.

[daviebhoy]

You are the one who has dismissed the possibility that folding J7s in the SB might be the correct thing to do.

Personally I fold pre. I have no idea what you are hoping to happen if you elect to call pre. Calling then folding when you hit the flop hard is worse than calling then folding when you miss the flop the majority of the time. Then there are the times you flop top pair and fold to an allin coz you think you are outkicked or against a set/overpair... We are out of position with about 20BB electing to call and then fold almost every flop against 2 opponents unless it comes JJ7 or villains open fold/check it down with trash hands.

[titaniumbean]

You are the one who has dismissed the possibility that folding J7s in the SB might be the correct thing to do.

Personally I fold pre. I have no idea what you are hoping to happen if you elect to call pre. Calling then folding when you hit the flop hard is worse than calling then folding when you miss the flop the majority of the time. Then there are the times you flop top pair and fold to an allin coz you think you are outkicked or against a set/overpair... We are out of position with about 20BB electing to call and then fold almost every flop against 2 opponents unless it comes JJ7 or villains open fold/check it down with trash hands.

that's because it's a great hand to see a flop with.

I LOVE GETTING MY MONEY IN WITH COMBO DRAWS


BUT I LIKES FOLD EQUITY AND TAKING POTS WITHOUT SHOWDOWN

[titaniumbean]

You are the one who has dismissed the possibility that folding J7s in the SB might be the correct thing to do.

Personally I fold pre. I have no idea what you are hoping to happen if you elect to call pre. Calling then folding when you hit the flop hard is worse than calling then folding when you miss the flop the majority of the time. Then there are the times you flop top pair and fold to an allin coz you think you are outkicked or against a set/overpair... We are out of position with about 20BB electing to call and then fold almost every flop against 2 opponents unless it comes JJ7 or villains open fold/check it down with trash hands.

hmm how often does betting go pot is 2 and he bets 20?

everytime?

this is such a rare situation. with our stack and the blinds/antes I am competing after an utg limper all day long.

[MANTIS01]

How much longer are these medium 8-10k stacks going to let you take their blinds? Not very much longer I reckon. I don't think people should be thinking they fold here to play some deep stack poker anytime soon. There will be a lot of jamming about now imo. So this weak point about passing to play small pots doesn't really reflect the stage of the tournament you're now at. I also think we shouldn't be looking to nut-peddle our way to the f/t either because we don't have enough chips really. My man UTG is being a bit extreme if he has the nfd so I would find it very hard to fold this hand.

[daviebhoy]

BUT I LIKES FOLD EQUITY AND TAKING POTS WITHOUT SHOWDOWN

Right, so fold pre. If you do elect to call and flop the effective nuts then call the all-in.

[BulldozerD]

those that say fold pre are sort of avoiding the question at hand and you are sort of using the post flop action to justify your point. Yes it is a valid statement to make and is perfectly ok but doesn't really address the post flop question. majority of time on this flop you get chips in first here in a +EV situation with FE plus x number of outs if called.

basically now you need to assign UTG with a range and do the maths. I might gamble here as we have a shoving stack if we fail and a big stack to take down the tourney

[titaniumbean]

How much longer are these medium 8-10k stacks going to let you take their blinds? Not very much longer I reckon. I don't think people should be thinking they fold here to play some deep stack poker anytime soon. There will be a lot of jamming about now imo. So this weak point about passing to play small pots doesn't really reflect the stage on the tournament you're now at. I also think we shouldn't be looking to nut-peddle our way to the f/t either because we don't have enough chips really. My man UTG is being a bit extreme if he has the nfd so I would find it very hard to fold this hand.

Do you not think from this betting action that he may well be a weak player and therefore could have just limped KThh and seen low cards with hearts and gone all in because that's what people on tv do? I could just aswell see someone turning up with overpairs but the overbet looks like a draw to me.

[titaniumbean]

BUT I LIKES FOLD EQUITY AND TAKING POTS WITHOUT SHOWDOWN

Right, so fold pre. If you do elect to call and flop the effective nuts then call the all-in.

HAHAHAHAAH READ MY POST

Does betting always go check allin massive over bet shove. No of course it doesn't.


What matters is not how pretty our hand is or how we put in 200 so now we hit we cant fold. We put in money with a plan. If the action goes pretty much any other way than open jam we are putting all our money in. When it goes in like this you need to look at the range of hands someone could do this with and the relative likelihood of each hand, combine that with how our hand fares against that range and see where you lie.

Hitting = you stack off, means you play cards not poker.

[titaniumbean]

those that say fold pre are sort of avoiding the question at hand and you are sort of using the post flop action to justify your point. Yes it is a valid statement to make and is perfectly ok but doesn't really address the post flop question. majority of time on this flop you get chips in first here in a +EV situation with FE plus x number of outs if called.

basically now you need to assign UTG with a range and do the maths. I might gamble here as we have a shoving stack if we fail and a big stack to take down the tourney

with last line 100%

[MANTIS01]

How much longer are these medium 8-10k stacks going to let you take their blinds? Not very much longer I reckon. I don't think people should be thinking they fold here to play some deep stack poker anytime soon. There will be a lot of jamming about now imo. So this weak point about passing to play small pots doesn't really reflect the stage on the tournament you're now at. I also think we shouldn't be looking to nut-peddle our way to the f/t either because we don't have enough chips really. My man UTG is being a bit extreme if he has the nfd so I would find it very hard to fold this hand.

Do you not think from this betting action that he may well be a weak player and therefore could have just limped KThh and seen low cards with hearts and gone all in because that's what people on tv do? I could just aswell see someone turning up with overpairs but the overbet looks like a draw to me.

There's no doubt he's a weak player. That said he could be turning over all manner of shite or making a move on the ss. And my hand is very strong.

[daviebhoy]

HAHAHAHAAH READ MY POST

FFS. Please do whatever you like. My bad, calling SB with shite and the folding the flop when we hit it is indeed good poker.