20:20 hand

[MANTIS01]

If you plan to push many flops how is position important here? Acting first is advantageous. But wait, you could well have position if your action comes from the blinds, so why are we overly stressing that we're deffo getting action from the 3 players to our left? When you shove A-J a worse hand will NEVER call you and a better hand will probably call you. If you standard raise there is a fair chance a worse hand will call you and that hand will hit a flop less than one third of the time. If your position in a tournament is such that you're having to shove don't think you have some massive edge here, you're in trouble, and I don't think shoving and folding out all worse hands and taking some blinds is so desirable really. If people like shoving here because they wont get called they should happily shove atc imo.

[AlexMartin]

the craziness of this thread eludes me. Whats the problem with opening small? Pll seem to think we wont be snapping a jam. Open shoving might be +EV just because villains calling range is forced to be super narrow, open smaller, let them jam worse for value (a8/9/10/KJ/QJ blabla)/bluff, get a situation where you are massively +EV...

[DaveShoelace]

the craziness of this thread eludes me. Whats the problem with opening small? Pll seem to think we wont be snapping a jam. Open shoving might be +EV just because villains calling range is forced to be super narrow, open smaller, let them jam worse for value (a8/9/10/KJ/QJ blabla)/bluff, get a situation where you are massively +EV...

I know it must happen, especially when you are there, but I cant remember the last time I saw anyone jam light ever in a live tournament in the UK ever ever

[Longy]

the craziness of this thread eludes me. Whats the problem with opening small? Pll seem to think we wont be snapping a jam. Open shoving might be +EV just because villains calling range is forced to be super narrow, open smaller, let them jam worse for value (a8/9/10/KJ/QJ blabla)/bluff, get a situation where you are massively +EV...

Their ranges are irrelevant, the shove is unexploitable. In fact in these spots with aj, the wider they call the more +ev the push is. Having played this tourney this week there were so few people capable of re shoving light that really isn't a massive consideration.

[MANTIS01]

the craziness of this thread eludes me. Whats the problem with opening small? Pll seem to think we wont be snapping a jam. Open shoving might be +EV just because villains calling range is forced to be super narrow, open smaller, let them jam worse for value (a8/9/10/KJ/QJ blabla)/bluff, get a situation where you are massively +EV...

Their ranges are irrelevant, the shove is unexploitable. In fact in these spots with aj, the wider they call the more +ev the push is. Having played this tourney this week there were so few people capable of re shoving light that really isn't a massive consideration.

Let me ask you what would happen if the shove got through as expected, you added 3k to your stack, and then picked up A-J next hand. The shove is unexploitable right? So we shove again. At what stage do we draw the line with this mentality? Also yeah the players are bad so when we standard raise all suited Aces and broadway hands k-J/Q-J etc...will come along. This is very good for us.

[Longy]

the craziness of this thread eludes me. Whats the problem with opening small? Pll seem to think we wont be snapping a jam. Open shoving might be +EV just because villains calling range is forced to be super narrow, open smaller, let them jam worse for value (a8/9/10/KJ/QJ blabla)/bluff, get a situation where you are massively +EV...

Their ranges are irrelevant, the shove is unexploitable. In fact in these spots with aj, the wider they call the more +ev the push is. Having played this tourney this week there were so few people capable of re shoving light that really isn't a massive consideration.

Let me ask you what would happen if the shove got through as expected, you added 3k to your stack, and then picked up A-J next hand. The shove is unexploitable right? So we shove again. At what stage do we draw the line with this mentality? Also yeah the players are bad so when we standard raise all suited Aces and broadway hands k-J/Q-J etc...will come along. This is very good for us.

Mantis I advocate making it 5k if you look back in the thread, I simply pointing out that the shove is unexploitable and the opponents ranges make no difference. If we add 4.8k(assuming 9 handed), we therefore are deeper and therefore the shove might not be unexploitable.

[AlexMartin]

the craziness of this thread eludes me. Whats the problem with opening small? Pll seem to think we wont be snapping a jam. Open shoving might be +EV just because villains calling range is forced to be super narrow, open smaller, let them jam worse for value (a8/9/10/KJ/QJ blabla)/bluff, get a situation where you are massively +EV...

Their ranges are irrelevant, the shove is unexploitable. In fact in these spots with aj, the wider they call the more +ev the push is. Having played this tourney this week there were so few people capable of re shoving light that really isn't a massive consideration.

Let me ask you what would happen if the shove got through as expected, you added 3k to your stack, and then picked up A-J next hand. The shove is unexploitable right? So we shove again. At what stage do we draw the line with this mentality? Also yeah the players are bad so when we standard raise all suited Aces and broadway hands k-J/Q-J etc...will come along. This is very good for us.

Mantis I advocate making it 5k if you look back in the thread, I simply pointing out that the shove is unexploitable and the opponents ranges make no difference. If we add 4.8k(assuming 9 handed), we therefore are deeper and therefore the shove might not be unexploitable.

 Shoving must impact on the range our opponents will continue with. This absolutely must be true.

[poonjoe]

If you plan to push many flops how is position important here? Acting first is advantageous. But wait, you could well have position if your action comes from the blinds, so why are we overly stressing that we're deffo getting action from the 3 players to our left? When you shove A-J a worse hand will NEVER call you and a better hand will probably call you. If you standard raise there is a fair chance a worse hand will call you and that hand will hit a flop less than one third of the time. If your position in a tournament is such that you're having to shove don't think you have some massive edge here, you're in trouble, and I don't think shoving and folding out all worse hands and taking some blinds is so desirable really. If people like shoving here because they wont get called they should happily shove atc imo.

Acting first is advantageous???

When the other guy gets to see you shove, then decide if he wants to call or not?

As for worse hands calling, we're not playing KK here, we're very happy to take the blinds and antes. If we standard raise then see a flop we won't know whether a 'worse hand' has called us until its far too late.

[MANTIS01]

If you plan to push many flops how is position important here? Acting first is advantageous. But wait, you could well have position if your action comes from the blinds, so why are we overly stressing that we're deffo getting action from the 3 players to our left? When you shove A-J a worse hand will NEVER call you and a better hand will probably call you. If you standard raise there is a fair chance a worse hand will call you and that hand will hit a flop less than one third of the time. If your position in a tournament is such that you're having to shove don't think you have some massive edge here, you're in trouble, and I don't think shoving and folding out all worse hands and taking some blinds is so desirable really. If people like shoving here because they wont get called they should happily shove atc imo.

Acting first is advantageous???

When the other guy gets to see you shove, then decide if he wants to call or not?

As for worse hands calling, we're not playing KK here, we're very happy to take the blinds and antes. If we standard raise then see a flop we won't know whether a 'worse hand' has called us until its far too late.

I don't know if we are very happy to only take the blinds at this stage, although for 5k we wouldn't say no. Over half the field to go before the money and a less than average stack we can only seemingly push with? I reckon stealing the blinds only really serves to maintain some sort of mediocrity. If you make any bet in poker that induces a call from a worse hand I don't know how that can figure to be a bad bet. This hand could be a good opportunity to progress and is worth playing imo.

[action man]

meh, in this tourney i glance round the table, and see the age/demeanor of the players on your left, most important thing is to decide before you raise, how you will proceed if each of the players shoves. Make it 5k, you may decide to raise/call 3 of the 4 and raise/fold to the other. I do favour a 5k raise here as opposed to the jam. Im never folding/limping, or never raising with the intention of folding to any shoves.

[MC]

meh, in this tourney i glance round the table, and see the age/demeanor of the players on your left, most important thing is to decide before you raise, how you will proceed if each of the players shoves. Make it 5k, you may decide to raise/call 3 of the 4 and raise/fold to the other. I do favour a 5k raise here as opposed to the jam. Im never folding/limping, or never raising with the intention of folding to any shoves.

^^I like this

[Girgy85]

Stop slowrolling CF ffs! What happened?

[EvilPie]

Stop slowrolling CF ffs! What happened?

I'm guessing he ran in to a better hand and lost.

[salfi]

why do the results even matter. ?

[Longy]

why do the results even matter. ?

Cos we want to give Nana a rubdown, ldo.