Live MTT - how do you play mid pairs ?

[nirvana]

Live MTT, 19 remain (2 tables) from 50+, 9 paid

Blinds 400/800 R/A75

Mid position (decent player I think most people would say) makes it 2500, called on the button, I call in the SB with  , BB also calls

I have 26K, original raiser around 40K and button around 40K, BB I think I have covered.

Flop 

I Check, BB checks original raiser makes it about 7000, button folds

Interested in opinions on pre flop call with 88 and then how to proceed when original raiser makes it 7K to go

[EvilPie]

If you think 88 is ahead of raiser you should be 3 betting for value. Make it about 7k or so if that's the case.

By flatting you've basically assumed you're behind so are set mining.

You've missed so just drop the hand.

If you'd 3 bet pre and get a call off the raiser you can now possibly put him on AK or AQ so stick your pair deep in his eye. You may even get him to lay down 99 to JJ if you've got a suitable rep and he's tight enough so decided to set mine himself.

Mid pairs are tough but there's nothing worse that flatting 88, seeing all under cards and changing you plan from set mining to thinking you might be winning with just the pair. If he's raised with 99+ he's never passing on this board and that's well in his range.

[nirvana]

If you think 88 is ahead of raiser you should be 3 betting for value. Make it about 7k or so if that's the case.

By flatting you've basically assumed you're behind so are set mining.

You've missed so just drop the hand.

If you'd 3 bet pre and get a call off the raiser you can now possibly put him on AK or AQ so stick your pair deep in his eye. You may even get him to lay down 99 to JJ if you've got a suitable rep and he's tight enough so decided to set mine himself.

Mid pairs are tough but there's nothing worse that flatting 88, seeing all under cards and changing you plan from set mining to thinking you might be winning with just the pair. If he's raised with 99+ he's never passing on this board and that's well in his range.

End thread I think, thanks Mr Pie. Although, isn't a good player very likely to flat any 3 bet pre with a decent pair and we find ourselves in the same spot ? Perhaps not actually with the button behind. OK still end thread :-)

[Royal Flush]

I probs just jam pre.

Once i have seen this flop i guess check jam, just depends how good this player is (like obv bet folding this flop 4 way is terrible but he might do it)

[nirvana]

Flush man. Quite interesting, the player in question mentioned he'd met you out in Vegas this year - Paul Ephremson. Good player imo, against most of the other players on the table I would have passed to the flop c bet

I did check / jam and was called. Since all the players at the table looked at me as though I was mad as I collected my ipod and had my last sip of wine I thought I'd get some input here :-)

[Royal Flush]

Ah think was on his table in Bellagio 1k briefly, i was by the pool pretty quickly iirc

[TightEnd]

Against Paul E, and with I assume a bit of dead money from a button flat calling, I'm tempted to squeeze pre Nirvana.

[EvilPie]

Against Paul E, and with I assume a bit of dead money from a button flat calling, I'm tempted to squeeze pre Nirvana.

I think we're a little bit deep to squeeze all in pre with this hand. We could do that with atc as we're only getting called by better.

I hate the check jam on the flop. Again we only get called by hands that crush us or if we're very lucky an idiot with AK or AQ.

I'd prefer to check/jam with a hand that at least has a chance of winning if it gets called. 33 or 55 I maybe check jam because at least we've got 6 outs and about 25% if we get called by a bigger pair.

[TightEnd]

Paul E is a Laggy talented player, with position here and chips. He ain't checking any flop here in my experience.

Vast majority of flops we're not going to have a clue whether he is at it and we are good or whether he has a hand. As becomes the case with this flop.

Apart from set mining and check folding post here, I don't think there is a great option apart from shoving pre, accepting we're a little deep to do so but also accepting his range is wider than many here.

 

[Royal Flush]

Against Paul E, and with I assume a bit of dead money from a button flat calling, I'm tempted to squeeze pre Nirvana.

I think we're a little bit deep to squeeze all in pre with this hand. We could do that with atc as we're only getting called by better.

I hate the check jam on the flop. Again we only get called by hands that crush us or if we're very lucky an idiot with AK or AQ.

I'd prefer to check/jam with a hand that at least has a chance of winning if it gets called. 33 or 55 I maybe check jam because at least we've got 6 outs and about 25% if we get called by a bigger pair.

Well that's great if we get to choose our hands, i will probs take 35s, meanwhile in this hand the pot is over 17k and we have 23k left, i don't really give a shit if he calls, a near double up will do me.

[MANTIS01]

It looks too deep to jam pre but I don't think it is. A decent 3-bet after the action leaves no play in your stack after the flop so what you gonna do? With 25% of your stack in there pre and villain raising wide I think squeezing all-in is the best play. Flatting or 3-betting only puts you in problematic positions and you will often look for an excuse to fold. Pushing is aggro fee if admittedly a little unsophisticated.

[nirvana]

Its interesting how quite simple positions throw up a variety of ways to approach them.

Overall, I think with my stack size, I like EvilPie's line in his first post. It's costing me 10% of my stack to see a flop and set mine. If I miss well, meh, let it go to any further action and fight another day with a still, very playable stack.

Timid, but some of this game has got to be survival oriented hasn't it ? I mean you cant play for the win if you're out.

[MANTIS01]

Its interesting how quite simple positions throw up a variety of ways to approach them.

Overall, I think with my stack size, I like EvilPie's line in his first post. It's costing me 10% of my stack to see a flop and set mine. If I miss well, meh, let it go to any further action and fight another day with a still, very playable stack.

Timid, but some of this game has got to be survival oriented hasn't it ? I mean you cant play for the win if you're out.

Like I said, people generally look for an excuse to fold post-flop and move on with a smaller stack. You will not hit your set at all often so most of the time this play will lead to you moving on with that smaller stack. Spending 10% of your stack taking less than 3-1 about a 7-1 shot isn't a good habit to get into imo and isn't a strategy that wins you tournaments.

[nirvana]

I kind of take your point but the implied odds if I hit the set, in a casino with players I know well (and know me) are far greater than the 3-1 you mention

[pleno1]

I kind of take your point but the implied odds if I hit the set, in a casino with players I know well (and know me) are far greater than the 3-1 you mention

your not deep enough to be worrying about implied odds,

if you thik your too deep to shove, just raise and call if he 4bet jams