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Author Topic: Spread Trading Diary and New Account Opportunity  (Read 8228 times)
Simon Galloway
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« on: November 15, 2009, 10:55:55 PM »

Spread Firms are offering large incentives at the moment for new customers, so I am going to explain spread trading for those that don't know much about it and then update this thread with my bet of the day each day for a while and see what happens.  For anyone that fancies a very heavily subsidised punt, read on, but I will explain the risks first for those that don't totally understand it:

What is a spread trade and why are they dangerous?

A traditional bet on the horses might involve you putting £10 on a horse in Ladbrokes.  You know your maximum outlay and your potential profit.  Spread trading doesn't just require you to be right; it pays out on a scale according to how right you are.  Depending on the market, your £10 stake might actually be putting £1000 in play, so you really need to make sure you understand your worst possible outcome and tailor your stakes accordingly.
I will give an example using NH Racing match bets, as this will be the normal selections I will be making ITT.

Ladbrokes might price a match up 8/13 Horse A and 11/10 Horse B or something   Roll Eyes )and if your selection beats the other selection you win - regardless of if they are first and second, or second from last and last, no other horse matters.

As a spread, it might be quoted as Horse A v Horse B 1-2.5

The spread firms use the above notation (quoted in lengths with a maximum makeup of 15 lengths) and allow you to choose your horse and stake.  If you like Horse A, you "Buy" @ 2.5 (you spot the other horse a 2.5 length start) and nominate a stake (will use £1 for easy maths)  If you like Horse B here, you "sell" at 1 and your horse receives a 1 length start.

The maximum make-up (result) is +/- 15 lengths, so here are the settlements for various outcomes:

1. Horse A comes under orders and refused to race, Horse B finishes last.  
Even though Horse B won this match by about 3 miles, the maximum makeup is 15 lengths, so all those who bought the spread now owe £17.50 and all those who sold the spread now win £16 as the spread is settled at -15.

2. Horse A wins the race and Horse B falls
As above, all those who bought the spread make £12.50 and all those who sold it lose £14 as the settlement is +15.

3. They both fail to finish.
Spread is voided.

4. A came 4th 10 lengths clear of B.
I will let you do the maths...

Why trade NH match bets?

You don't have to, you can trade football, or whatever you feel like.  Understand though that markets can be highly volatile, so always calculate your worst possible result before getting involved.  I like the NH match bets, I think the spread firms quite often make careless ricks in the markets.  I may be underestimating the skill of the respective trading desks, but many of the spreads quoted seem to be derived solely from the horse odds.  In the world of NH racing, some horses haven't raced for 300+ days and are unfit, others have to carry around 12st in a 4 mile mudbath, some horses are suspect jumpers, don't like the course/conditions/distance etc etc.  I'm not going to declare my complete strategy, butI think this gives great opportunities in a match bet where although both horses might be 8/1 shots to win, one horse most definitely isn't even money against the other to cross the line first.  So I will put up my nap of the day for a while to a £1 stake and see how badly I get filled in for a week or two.  Edit:  It is a £2 stake now as that is the minimum stake to qualify for the promotions.

What was that about new accounts?

Oh yes, nearly forgot Wink  Depending on spread firm, there are a variety of incentives for new account holders, and usually a bigger incentive to me.  If anyone wants to open an account and take what amounts to being a +EV punt, let me know.  For example, one firm are offering a free £300 bet after you have put £100 at risk.  My contact details are in my profile or PM.  I will happily chop whatever incentives we both receive.  Please make sure you understand the risks before jumping in.  If unsure, just sit back and laugh whilst I do my cobblers...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 01:25:48 PM by Simon Galloway » Logged

pokefast
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 07:04:22 AM »

 
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DaveShoelace
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2009, 08:25:23 AM »

Interesting stuff, always wanted to learn about these but never knew where to start.

Whom do you trade with mainly? Is Betfair the best?

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?



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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2009, 08:28:55 AM »

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?

Meh usually you can, not sure 100% but they usually wanna know quite a bit about you , some may even ask to do a credit check.
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2009, 10:59:40 AM »

I opened an account with what was IG index no credit check or anything,i'm presuming thats because i didn't open a credit account though.
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pokefast
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2009, 11:04:17 AM »

[quote

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?




[/quote]

Depends on what you bet on.

In Simon's example you can because there is a maximum +/- of 15 times the unit stake.

Basically in any event where there is a maximum make up you can work out your liabilities beforehand.

Something like cricket runs though could lose you a fortune because you just don't know how many are going to be scored.
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2009, 11:52:01 AM »

Interesting stuff, always wanted to learn about these but never knew where to start.

Whom do you trade with mainly? Is Betfair the best?

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?


Betfair is not a spread betting firm Mr Shoe, it's a person-to-person betting exchange. Different ball game.
Losses owed to spread betting firms are recoverable by law. It's a risky business on the whole imo.
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2009, 11:57:37 AM »

Interesting stuff, always wanted to learn about these but never knew where to start.

Whom do you trade with mainly? Is Betfair the best?

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?


Betfair is not a spread betting firm Mr Shoe, it's a person-to-person betting exchange. Different ball game.
Losses owed to spread betting firms are recoverable by law. It's a risky business on the whole imo.

so lets say i bet on the date of next election on a spread and i think its going to be nearer than the date they set
but in the mean time there is a milatary coup and the next election is a few years down the line
i could be seriously fcked ?
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2009, 12:07:23 PM »

Interesting stuff, always wanted to learn about these but never knew where to start.

Whom do you trade with mainly? Is Betfair the best?

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?


Betfair is not a spread betting firm Mr Shoe, it's a person-to-person betting exchange. Different ball game.
Losses owed to spread betting firms are recoverable by law. It's a risky business on the whole imo.

So you can potentially lose more than is in your account?
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ACE2M
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2009, 12:21:03 PM »

What is your on going affiliate deal if we go through you? Are you chopping lifetime affiliate earnings? Can we get the same deal elsewhere?
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 12:30:06 PM by ACE2M » Logged
pokefast
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2009, 12:25:26 PM »

Interesting stuff, always wanted to learn about these but never knew where to start.

Whom do you trade with mainly? Is Betfair the best?

Can you see when you place a bet what you maximum loss could be? Or at least can you see a reasonable idea. I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?


Betfair is not a spread betting firm Mr Shoe, it's a person-to-person betting exchange. Different ball game.
Losses owed to spread betting firms are recoverable by law. It's a risky business on the whole imo.

So you can potentially lose more than is in your account?

If you have a credit account then yes if not they won't accept the bet if you don't have enough funds to cover your liabilities.
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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2009, 12:36:44 PM »

I presume the bookmaker you are doing it with will not let you make a wager that the money in your account cant handle?

You would almost certainly have to open a deposit account.  Under FSA regs, the spread firm shouldn't even think about offering you a credit account until such times as you can prove your market understanding and have a demonstrable net worth of £X times your credit limit.

The firm shouldn't allow you to trade larger than your funds on deposit will cover, but occasionally will let a small liability through on top, or some bad shit happens and there is an amended result.

Spreadex, IG, Sporting Index are the sort of firms dabbling in these markets.


so lets say i bet on the date of next election on a spread and i think its going to be nearer than the date they set
but in the mean time there is a milatary coup and the next election is a few years down the line
i could be seriously fcked ?

They will normally put a cap on it (known as a stop-loss, or a maximum makeup, let's say of a 100 days maximum, or even both)  and then you can work out how potentially volatile your bet is and what your maximum exposure is.

So you can potentially lose more than is in your account?
As above, yes, but it isn't completely unpredictable once you understand what your ultimate liability is.

What is your on going affiliate deal if we go through you? Are you chopping lifetime affiliate earnings? Can we get the same deal elsewhere?
No this is one-off stuff.  You get a free bet, I get a bigger free bet, I will chop both bets with you.  You can open any account you like with any company without me, but obv we both don't get a free bet, and that's it.




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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2009, 01:10:48 PM »

Day 1:

What a shit day's racing to kick off with.

3:20 Plumpton Its A Classic/Quartz Du Montceau 1-2.5

My selection for the day is to BUY Its a Classic Over Quartz Du Montceau for £2 a length @ 2.5

For the Degens

2:50 Plumpton, where there is a match between Stormhoek and Quartano.  At the moment, it is being quoted as "-0.75 your choice" but I am expecting this market to move, something like 0-1.5 Quartano over Stormhoek.  If it moves this way or further, I may be interested in taking Stormhoek.
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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2009, 01:16:35 PM »

Jeez that was quick, lo and behold the market moved to 0.5-2 so Bet 2 for the day is to SELL Quartano over Stormhoek at 0.5 for £2 a length.

For those still getting used to the terminology, match spreads are always quoted as fav OVER underdog.  If you fancy the underdog, you are selling the performance of the fav, relative to the underdog.  So in this bet, I have Stormhoek and a half length spot.
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Simon Galloway
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2009, 03:37:05 PM »

Even though It's A classic won the race, it failed to cover the spread.

So day 1 = £-10
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