F1 - 2010

[thetank]

What do people feel about rule changes and such to promote overtaking? I've no complaints but understand the criticism that on the face of things it looks like you need crashes/safety cars or crazy weather to get an interesting race.

Taking this last Grand Prix and Button's drive as an example, the first half of the race great TV and you didn't know what was going to happen, taking all those places in the first lap, the tires, the yrack temperature, the pit stops timing, the safety car, Alonso getting shat on etc.
 The second half by contrast seemed a complete formality. A little bit of tension will he/won't he be able to challenge Rosberg for 3rd place but then news comes through that he has to conserve fuel, at the same time the gap between Webber and Hamilton is such that it's just a case of the top 4 cars driving home safely.

I'd say that's probably typical of what I've seen this season, there being more going on at the start of the race than at the end. (A few notable exceptions, the Red Bull collision a couple of races back then the Mclarens sparring for 1st was incred)

I'm still loving it, like I say no real complaints, but it's a wierd thing in a race that takes some getting used to. I don't see many 5k or 10k athletics races where the first half is the must see TV. Has this always been the case with F1? Is it really crying out for the changes some are insisting upon?
 

[thetank]

I'm just a patzer but I reckon that being able to refuel in race would bung an extra dynamic in there to mess things up a bit and make it possible for drivers to run their engines as liberally as they like in the middle part of the race if the situation meritted it. None of this econo drive nonsense.

What was the rationale behind stopping the mid race refueling anyway? Was it like a safety thing? 

Don't like this make the cars a bit shitter downforce wise to promote overtaking. Makes as much sense as having a rule that you're only allowed 6 guys to do a pitstop and 2 of them have got to be temps with learning difficulties. If there's safety restrictions on the manafacture of the car then fair enough, but otherwise it should be about making the fastest car possible no?

[TightEnd]

tank

the issues surrounding overtaking come in three parts


- the aerodynamic grip the cars have

- the mechanical grip the cars have

- the tracks


taking each in turn

Technology has meant that modern F1 cars create awesome downforce and are very difficult to follow closely without getting caught in very "dirty" air. New innovations such as "F-Ducts" and "Blown diffusers" exacerbate this.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. What technology you see in F1 often finds its way onto road cars in due course but purely looking at F1 the effect can often be that races become processional. Diehard F1 fans would like to see less aero grip (can be achieved by outlawing the aero devices or lowering front/back wing sizes"

In terms of Mech grip we are talking tyres. There is only one manufacturer in F1 so differential tyre performance is tougher to achieve

Tracks, a lot of the newer tracks (esp those designed by Tilke) do not lend themseleves to overtaking. Often for cost and safety reasons


Now all that having been said...create the right circumstances ie changeable weather, poor tyre performance (Canada a month ago) or one of the classic tracks (Silverstone, Spa, Monza, Montreal) and you can still get great racing but on a single weather day with no tyre issues and a new track and often overtaking becomes very difficult. With strategy being taken out of the equation a lot as well (every one starts on full tanks) then a procession is possible

Despite all this, 2010 has been a great season to date. Hamilton is a charger, Button more cerebral. The Red Bull battle is fascinating. Plenty of good races.

It's perhaps a forlorn hope to return to Mansell versus Piquet or Prost versus Senna, where none of the aero grip factors were really present, but F1 is currently better than it has been for 5-10 years IMO..a mixture of the characters, the sub-plots and just random luck of racing conditions so far this season

 

[EvilPie]

Given total freedom to do what they want the cars would probably be doing 300mph along the straights and 100mph round hairpins.

Every year the F1A introduces measures to slow the cars down a bit.

In the Mansell era they were 3.5L turbo charged monsters with ridiculously wide tyres. The cars were kicking out around 1000hp and the tyres were what kept them stuck to the tarmac.

Now they drive 2.5L normally aspirated cars but with technology advances they still deliver similar power. The tyres are much narrower but advances in aerodynamics mean they go faster round corners than ever before.

So yes the restrictions are about safety. Left to their own devices the cars would be too fast and the chances of surviving a crash would be significantly reduced.

There are many other reasons such as budget control and allowing new teams to enter  F1. New teams wouldn't have a chance if there were no restrictions put on existing teams. They'd just throw their seemingly limitless budget at making a car so fast that nobody else could get near it. Even now with budget caps, no testing, no spare car etc. it's still impossible for anybody to get near the top 4 or 5 teams. Imagine how that would be without the restrictions?

[EvilPie]

As far as fualling goes Tank I think it's mainly down to budget cuts. Transporting 2 fuelling rigs per team between 20 races was obviously very expensive. Scrap refuelling and you don't need the refuelling rigs. simple.

It's a shame they don't allow refuelling any more. That was always one of the things that kept a race alive. You never really knew if someone was doing 2, 3 or even 4 fuel stops before it actually happened so there was always a chance of positions changing at any stage of the race.

Some teams would opt for more fuel stops because it meant carrying a lighter fuel load. 10kgs of fuel = 0.4 s per lap which is huge in F1. A car uses approx 120kg of fuel in a race. Approx 2kg per lap at somewhere like Silverstone.

Start car A with 120kg of fuel and car B with 20kg of fuel. car B will be 4 s per lap quicker. However in 10 laps it will have to stop for more fuel. It will be 40s ahead so if it takes 35s to refuel then the net gain is to do more stops. Some tracks however it may take longer or shorter to get through the pits meaning you have to work out how best to fuel your car.

That over simplifies it but you can see roughly where it goes. Add in to that putting new tyres on for an extra few 10ths per lap and also reduced tyre wear with a lighter car and you can start to see where the correct strategy for each track is worth more time that adding a few extra aero parts for the odd hundredth of a second.

Now they've stopped refuelling the strategy is far less critical. You have one compulsory stop to change tyres as you have to run 2 different types. Everyone has to do this one stop though so barring incidents everyone is on the same startegy albeit some will start on the slower tyres and some on the quicker.

Strategy now is more about picking the right time to stop to allow your car to filter in to a nice clear piece of track letting the driver put in a few quick laps unimpeded by anyone else.

[thetank]

cheers there

[gatso]

farce

[TightEnd]

Specifically broke the rules there surely, clear as day on the radio instructions?

[thetank]

referee

[Tuffster]

Specifically broke the rules there surely, clear as day on the radio instructions?

Clear as day to fans, clear as mud to the FIA and Lawyers.

No punishment due to the waters being muddied.

Team orders should be allowed in F1. NOT because I agree with them, but only because (obvious from this incident) they cannot be prevented.

[TightEnd]

You have a good point


I'd wet the track at random intervals, allow refuelling, unlimited tyres and randomly punish Alonso whenever he whinges.


I perhaps have less of a good point lol

[ACE2M]

pah, total naf. cost me £380 quid.

Fortunately laid for a decent profit at 1.5 as i thought they might do that. 18/1 was a crazy price on massa i thought.

[Nico29]

pah, total naf. cost me £380 quid.

Fortunately laid for a decent profit at 1.5 as i thought they might do that. 18/1 was a crazy price on massa i thought.

Was on massa@25s and alonso@4s, massa wlda been much the better result for me.

Such a bad taste in the mouth after that display there, what made me laugh was the way they tried to deny it even though it's clear as day what went on.

I'd fine them, dock them points and even award the race to vettel, that wld teach them.

No doubt the stewards will do nothing.

[thetank]

Grid penalty next race would probably be a proportionate response.

[Tuffster]

Given that it was a team decision, I think the most sensible response would be, either; loss of Constructor points for Ferrari or 10 place grid penalties for both drivers in Hungary.

They're not going to be kicked out, but I think the above would be fair.

As much as I detest Alonso, I have to admit that the Ferrari was the class of the field today, sadly Alonso will never match that level of class,