GUKPT Walsall vs Mickey Mahrenholz

[GreekStein]

Yeah, pretty interesting break down of our long-term goals utilising this strat. Pretty much misses the point thou. Villain has been at the table only a short time and hero hasn't done anything. So the point is how villain comprehends this strat right now in this 1st hand. I said there's a good chance villain sees our strat as strength all things considered. So I don't know how chatting about the consistency of our strat into the future really helps much when we're trying to deduce the strength of our oppo's hand right now. We look pretty strong for someone not repping strength imo.

is villian a tard or been on the moon for a few years?  Any regular poker player is not going to be overawed by the strength of a cbet especially not on a T high dry board. It's not back in the day where a flop check raise is not allowed because it's rude. People play the game; you know, the one where you don't base what you do solely on your cards.

Oh ok, so in this specific hand you think villain is c/r bluffing because poker is a game where you don't need the cards to make the moves. Good theory.

Are you taking the piss out of other people's poker theory?!

Aahaha just laughed real hard!

[Cf]

A few people say he's not c/r folding but I don't see why not. Hero has a shortish stack so needs to get something going. Raising pre and cbetting on a T84r board seems a decent spot to pick up a smallish pot so I think he can be doing a c/r with air here. He might even have a ten he's not prepared to call a shove with, as by that point he's "found out where he is" (no disrespect to actual player in op lol, don't know how good he is).  If he's on a draw himself then he's not getting the price to call (i make it ~8.5k into ~15.5k).  And if he's got you crushed then meh, you've got outs.

I think the shove's profitable and i'd like to get our stack going at this point rather than fold and slowly dwindle.

[EvilPie]

Looks like Chris played it well to me.

There's no point raising 79s to then get all passive on the flop because you've only got an up and down straight draw.

If you raise these sort of hands you should be fist pump shoving this flop when given the opportunity especially when you've got FE and nut outs.

[AlexMartin]

calling is pretty terrible imo, karl will always ship his draws and sometimes his air.

So he's going to ship when we hit as well? 

ofc, problem is we dont hit that 1 card enough of the time to make it profitable.... someone do the math on this, shove>fold>call and its not close imo.

[EvilPie]

calling is pretty terrible imo, karl will always ship his draws and sometimes his air.

So he's going to ship when we hit as well? 

ofc, problem is we dont hit that 1 card enough of the time to make it profitable.... someone do the math on this, shove>fold>call and its not close imo.

7.84 > 1.62 > 0.41

something like that anyway.

[titaniumbean]

Yeah, pretty interesting break down of our long-term goals utilising this strat. Pretty much misses the point thou. Villain has been at the table only a short time and hero hasn't done anything. So the point is how villain comprehends this strat right now in this 1st hand. I said there's a good chance villain sees our strat as strength all things considered. So I don't know how chatting about the consistency of our strat into the future really helps much when we're trying to deduce the strength of our oppo's hand right now. We look pretty strong for someone not repping strength imo.

is villian a tard or been on the moon for a few years?  Any regular poker player is not going to be overawed by the strength of a cbet especially not on a T high dry board. It's not back in the day where a flop check raise is not allowed because it's rude. People play the game; you know, the one where you don't base what you do solely on your cards.

Oh ok, so in this specific hand you think villain is c/r bluffing because poker is a game where you don't need the cards to make the moves. Good theory.

How likely is he to have hit the board, how many combinations of hands does he play this way that beat us compared to how many we can get folds from. That's the game. Not sitting there playing tight and respecting min-raise strength.

[doubleup]

ofc, problem is we dont hit that 1 card enough of the time to make it profitable.... someone do the math on this, shove>fold>call and its not close imo.

One card?  If we assume say that hero has 6 clean outs (thats surely not unreasonable) and villain pushes any turn, a call is def more profitable than a fold, but now agree prob not better than a push (mainly because I stoved some villain hands and heros equity when called is higher than 30%).

[MANTIS01]

Yeah, pretty interesting break down of our long-term goals utilising this strat. Pretty much misses the point thou. Villain has been at the table only a short time and hero hasn't done anything. So the point is how villain comprehends this strat right now in this 1st hand. I said there's a good chance villain sees our strat as strength all things considered. So I don't know how chatting about the consistency of our strat into the future really helps much when we're trying to deduce the strength of our oppo's hand right now. We look pretty strong for someone not repping strength imo.

is villian a tard or been on the moon for a few years?  Any regular poker player is not going to be overawed by the strength of a cbet especially not on a T high dry board. It's not back in the day where a flop check raise is not allowed because it's rude. People play the game; you know, the one where you don't base what you do solely on your cards.

Oh ok, so in this specific hand you think villain is c/r bluffing because poker is a game where you don't need the cards to make the moves. Good theory.

How likely is he to have hit the board, how many combinations of hands does he play this way that beat us compared to how many we can get folds from. That's the game. Not sitting there playing tight and respecting min-raise strength.

Ok, so we push because villain is unlikely to have hit the board and we can get him to fold most of his hands. So you would push with any random hand in this spot right? Also you would push with overpairs and sets because of your "we are trying to keep our strat consistent and not give info away" theory. Why would you push with overpairs and sets if you don't think villain will call? And if you don't push when you're strong you're not range balacing anymore right?

[EvilPie]

Personally I try not to do too much of my range balancing in all in showdown pots.

I think Mantis might well be talking gonads here.

[810ofclubs]

There's no point raising 79s to then get all passive on the flop

he isnt 1 of the more passive players ive met

[AlexMartin]

ofc, problem is we dont hit that 1 card enough of the time to make it profitable.... someone do the math on this, shove>fold>call and its not close imo.

One card?  If we assume say that hero has 6 clean outs (thats surely not unreasonable) and villain pushes any turn, a call is def more profitable than a fold, but now agree prob not better than a push (mainly because I stoved some villain hands and heros equity when called is higher than 30%).

i meant the turn.......as in we get 1 street to hit. me and u aint on same page double

[Cf]

Yeah, pretty interesting break down of our long-term goals utilising this strat. Pretty much misses the point thou. Villain has been at the table only a short time and hero hasn't done anything. So the point is how villain comprehends this strat right now in this 1st hand. I said there's a good chance villain sees our strat as strength all things considered. So I don't know how chatting about the consistency of our strat into the future really helps much when we're trying to deduce the strength of our oppo's hand right now. We look pretty strong for someone not repping strength imo.

is villian a tard or been on the moon for a few years?  Any regular poker player is not going to be overawed by the strength of a cbet especially not on a T high dry board. It's not back in the day where a flop check raise is not allowed because it's rude. People play the game; you know, the one where you don't base what you do solely on your cards.

Oh ok, so in this specific hand you think villain is c/r bluffing because poker is a game where you don't need the cards to make the moves. Good theory.

How likely is he to have hit the board, how many combinations of hands does he play this way that beat us compared to how many we can get folds from. That's the game. Not sitting there playing tight and respecting min-raise strength.

Ok, so we push because villain is unlikely to have hit the board and we can get him to fold most of his hands. So you would push with any random hand in this spot right? Also you would push with overpairs and sets because of your "we are trying to keep our strat consistent and not give info away" theory. Why would you push with overpairs and sets if you don't think villain will call? And if you don't push when you're strong you're not range balacing anymore right?

There's balancing our range and there's playing the situation. In this spot we've be c/raised by possibly a non premium holding and a push has a decent change to get through. If it doesn't then we at least have some outs. I'm going to go with what I believe is the more +EV play in this spot rather than worry too much about range balancing. And if he doesn't call then they obv don't know what we had.  We can balance our range later on when we get into the same situation and push with a set and get a call by someone thinking we're semi-bluffing again. And also, just because I played a hand a certain way doesn't mean i'm neccesarily going to play it the exact same way again.

And finally, this sutation is clearly diff than pushing with 2 random cards. Big difference in equity.

[Cottonbud]

Get it in and Get there obv!

[MANTIS01]

Yeah, pretty interesting break down of our long-term goals utilising this strat. Pretty much misses the point thou. Villain has been at the table only a short time and hero hasn't done anything. So the point is how villain comprehends this strat right now in this 1st hand. I said there's a good chance villain sees our strat as strength all things considered. So I don't know how chatting about the consistency of our strat into the future really helps much when we're trying to deduce the strength of our oppo's hand right now. We look pretty strong for someone not repping strength imo.

is villian a tard or been on the moon for a few years?  Any regular poker player is not going to be overawed by the strength of a cbet especially not on a T high dry board. It's not back in the day where a flop check raise is not allowed because it's rude. People play the game; you know, the one where you don't base what you do solely on your cards.

Oh ok, so in this specific hand you think villain is c/r bluffing because poker is a game where you don't need the cards to make the moves. Good theory.

How likely is he to have hit the board, how many combinations of hands does he play this way that beat us compared to how many we can get folds from. That's the game. Not sitting there playing tight and respecting min-raise strength.

Ok, so we push because villain is unlikely to have hit the board and we can get him to fold most of his hands. So you would push with any random hand in this spot right? Also you would push with overpairs and sets because of your "we are trying to keep our strat consistent and not give info away" theory. Why would you push with overpairs and sets if you don't think villain will call? And if you don't push when you're strong you're not range balacing anymore right?

There's balancing our range and there's playing the situation. In this spot we've be c/raised by possibly a non premium holding and a push has a decent change to get through. If it doesn't then we at least have some outs. I'm going to go with what I believe is the more +EV play in this spot rather than worry too much about range balancing. And if he doesn't call then they obv don't know what we had.  We can balance our range later on when we get into the same situation and push with a set and get a call by someone thinking we're semi-bluffing again. And also, just because I played a hand a certain way doesn't mean i'm neccesarily going to play it the exact same way again.

And finally, this sutation is clearly diff than pushing with 2 random cards. Big difference in equity.

Yep there's balancing our range and playing the situation. Regards playing this particular situation I don't think the FE is near what you think it is. I don't think villain is pure bluffing here and pushing will pick up a call. I don't believe most would jam the top of their range and I give credit to villain to see that. We push cos villain prob hasn't hit this board and wont be able to call and I think villain will see that quite clearly.

The fact that we can only balance our range by pushing strength later in a similar spot means we have been all-in in this spot hoping to bink a card to stay in.

[EvilPie]

Yep there's balancing our range and playing the situation. Regards playing this particular situation I don't think the FE is near what you think it is. I don't think villain is pure bluffing here and pushing will pick up a call. I don't believe most would jam the top of their range and I give credit to villain to see that. We push cos villain prob hasn't hit this board and wont be able to call and I think villain will see that quite clearly.

The fact that we can only balance our range by pushing strength later in a similar spot means we have been all-in in this spot hoping to bink a card to stay in.

You give credit to villain for spotting our bluff jam but he still needs something decent to call our shove. He may put us on a semi bluff which means he can call fairly light. There aren't many draws out there though. 79 and 9J are it so unless villain can put us specifically on one of those hands what does he think we're spewing with?

He either thinks we are a complete spewtard who's got air or we've got a very strong holding.

We're actually making a very well disguised semi bluff here. Villain has no idea what we've got. We could have air or a monster. Actually we've got neither but that's his problem to work out.

We also have the benefit that he's probably missed the board anyway so will fold. He probably folds small pairs as well.