have i played this right?

[AlexMartin]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

concur with mantis, only elect to NOT vary your opening raise size IF you are being exploited/ anticipate being exploited. ppl that say never vary your raise size need to really really think about the logic and whether balancing betsizing pre in gigantic field tournaments is going to be optimal. Just imagine some ridic circumstances, set controls and run the math. Clear cut.

n.b obv highstakes smallfield comps v skilled regs, sizing for the sake of balance is pretty huge if ur a reg (incase i was unclear).

[MANTIS01]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

[outragous76]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

Mantis

you are failing epicly in this thread just to try and be different from convention

its fairly well accepted that  a constant raise size is better than your raise on hand strength/opponent method.

the only except is obv +ev jamming Ax hands in LP with <10bb

[Longy]

Meh think Mantis has a point tbf, though with the caveat that when varying bet sizes you have to be very aware of who you are trying to exploit and what this does to your range/image in the eyes of other skilled opponents.

[George2Loose]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

Hasn't done me any harm so far so WD me. Obv your style works in the £20 live games at Walsall. So WD you.

[GreekStein]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

Hasn't done me any harm so far so WD me. Obv your style works in the £20 live games at Walsall. So WD you.

He sure beats the game.

Btw you're now forgiven for not coming to Luton mr Bedi. x

[MANTIS01]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

Hasn't done me any harm so far so WD me. Obv your style works in the £20 live games at Walsall. So WD you.

Are you the same guy who was getting staked by Longy a couple of weeks ago because you were busto?

[MANTIS01]

If the bb calls wide oop pre-flop why don't you want that pot to be bigger considering you're holding the advantage of a strong hand and position?

sigh

the fact that ironsides hand is strong is irrelevant - his range as he is on the button should be weak and if he changes his bet size when he has a strong hand a cunning........

If he increases the raise a cunning player will know he's got a strong hand? If the bb has a habit of calling wide oop he isn't cunning. You are trying to fit a general theory into a specific situation. So if the bb defends wide the fact ironside has a strong hand is very relevant. And we don't want to exploit that bad player because it fecks up our range balancing? For that to happen we've firstly gotta showdown, and if we do showdown those other 7 players get what tell? That when we increase our raise size we've got a strong hand? If we increase our raise size with junk in future hands our range now re-balances and we can steal more because of our tell.

Don't forget Outragous you said the bb will c-fold like 90% of the time. So pre is your chance to exploit. You don't want to exploit cos of range balancing and yet bb c-folds 90% remember.

If you are trying to say that against a player who is not paying any attention to your raise size or your range and who calls too much you should forget about anything that might be exploitable against a better player, I would agree with you but that is not what the discussion is about.

The discussion was about a button hand that happened to be near the top of the range against a player who we know nothing about.

Yes, I'm not talking about this hand. Quite a few posters said never vary your opening raise. Raising more to isolate a fish who calls wide is one reason to vary. I also think you should consider raising more from ep to give callers with position less room to manouvre post-flop and thus create good post flop SPR situations. Varying your raise size is also a good idea if you are skilled in manipulating your opponents perception of you.

Your post would explain why all the high stakes regs who crush the game never vary their raise sizes. WD

Your post explains how you are blindly dying to imitate what all the high stakes regs do in their games rather than adjusting to the immense diversity at intermediate level. So WD to you.

Hasn't done me any harm so far so WD me. Obv your style works in the £20 live games at Walsall. So WD you.

He sure beats the game.

Btw you're now forgiven for not coming to Luton mr Bedi. x

Talking of beating the game, just caught up with your staking thread.

[NigDawG]

lol and another thread turned into flame war

[Ironside]

get a grip guys

my dicks smaller than yours too

[George2Loose]

was using that stake more as a learning tool and can honestly say it worked. anyone reading your posts will realise your not a learning tool. just a spanner who has absolutely no idea how to play the game.

[the rage]

I've enjoyed the constructive / instructive input on this hand. Thanks for posting the hand details Ironside. Just getting away from the raise size discussion for now, could anyone please give me an approximate set of ranges that, if i were in the big blind's shoes here, i should be either calling , or, 3 betting with?
 I understand the points made about not calling off my chips with ATC. With the stack sizes in this hand, surely the implied odds are good enough to correctly call with a very wide range of hands? was the call with 23 off a terrible call, or was it a good one, knowing that he can get away at a loss of 1.25 blinds if he doesn't hit the flop massively?
  Any suggestions / advice appreciated. Cheers
 

[EvilPie]

was using that stake more as a learning tool and can honestly say it worked. anyone reading your posts will realise your not a learning tool. just a spanner who has absolutely no idea how to play the game.

Ouch. That sounds so bad.

Longy can you teach me some of your skillz as well please? I'll try to earn you a few bucks while you teach me the skillz that have taken you years to acquire but then I'll be off to win mad dimes on my own. No point sharing big bucks is there

I'll try not to give you any rubs though mate if that helps.

[EvilPie]

As far as the varying raise sizes goes I personally do vary them if the circumstance suits. Usually it doesn't btw.

Pre antes anything between 2.5x and 3.5x depending on position  and who's acting after me.

Post antes anything from 2.2x to 3x again depending on position and who's left to act.

Obviously these numbers change if there's a limper or 2.

If I think I've built up a rep for raising different amounts I may then add the factor of hand strength in to the equation if I don't think I'll be giving anything away.

The argument for sticking to the same raise size is that nobody ever knows what you've got. You could use the same argument for constantly varying it as well as long as you really do vary it for every raise.

[sovietsong]

George2Loose > Mantis