pretty sick spot in manc £1k

[railtard1]

Ok, so starting table of manc 1k event today. Table was pretty soft, and had like 5 limpers a pot on average.
One guy who i dont think i had ever played before (didnt recognise at all) was very active early, playing decent though (iso'ing limpers, value betting very well etc).
I hadnt played many hands and had no showdowns but had chipped to about 18k from 15k starting stack. (before hand my opponent had 19k-20k ish)

I open utg to 150 @ 25/50 with  .
It gets flatted by the most active player at the table, and the villain then makes it 600 on the button.
I 4bet it pretty quickly to 1850.
Villain SNAP peels my 4bet.

FLOP          yeh yeh, mbn etc

I bet 1500 at about 4k. (maybe too small IDK)

He beats me into the pot with a call ?!?!?!?!?  SIGNIFICANT? am i ruleing out TT now as surely he at least considers raising?

TURN 

I thought for a few seconds and checked. (maybe better to bet bet IDK). He snap bet 3K into about 7k. ?!??!?!

I called.

River 

I checked, and he SNAP put all his chips in one pile and moved in for about 13k which is full pot. I have about 11-12k back.

Pretty sure every street can be played differently, but my thoughts at the time were that the only worse hands he can value shove are JJ and TT.. but the fact he snapped the flop (instead of at least tanking for a moment) meant i ruled out TT, and the fact he bet the turn instead if checking back, kinda meant i ruled out JJ (has to check back on turn?)

My flop bet was small and i guess he could have a random float, but surely i only beat a random float here?  Qx has to be a decent part of his range here IMO?
The fact he peeled my 4bet means i cant think he is good enough to be turning like  Jx into a bluff on the river. So i lose to flushes, and AQ.
While i was tanking the river (maybe 4 minutes) he called a clock on me which i was pretty annoyed about (its a £1k event, maybe 40 minutes into the comp, with a potential 38k pot at 25/50).
Is the clock call strong allways???

Spoke to middy, leknave and bram about this at dinner, and them guys are kinda split on the hand.. i dont post many hands here, but i think this hand is quite interesting as it can (arguably should) be played different on 1/2/3/4 streets!

Other factors are that the table is pretty soft and if i fold i still have over 200bb!
hmmmm??!?!?

[MC]

Sick spot...

Think you should bet more like 2.5k-3k on the flop.

Folding river kinda sucks with our hand kinda under-repped. The way the action went he probs thinks we can't have a flush ourselves. But this is a bloody tough decision. I think I'm 51% calling, 49% folding lol...

Clock used to be weak but think it's stronger more recently, a lá Glen Chorney...

[action man]

think were beat close to 90% of the time here. AcJc AcQc im looking to see the most.

[Blatch]

I think is a pretty standard hand. You should know that even the £1k buy INS aren't that great standard until the 2nd day normally, and most decent players you would know.

Quick calls are signs of draws especially against weaker players.

Unless he is using his image then I reckon your beat 80% of the time If not more. Plus you should have a big edge in the field and be able to get chips back no probs.

[MANTIS01]

Agree with 2.5k-3k on the flop. The pot was 4-bet pre so leading for more could help get the chips in on the flop if the action continues. Villain prob doesn't spazz his chips this early in 1k event unless he has a hand, although he may think A-k is a hand.

[MC]

Oh and I don't see how we're under-repped, how is he gonna think we'd play KK here?

Bet 1.5k, check-call, check feels kinda soft for top-set that's all. Not saying it's the wrong play obv...

Sigh @ me potentially being a POW...

[NigDawG]

ya fwiw you def took like 6-8 minutes on the river cos our table had played like 4 hands and i still came over and watched some of it

its weird because his body language was really weak up until he called clock, like as soon as he did that i thought it was a fold....might of called before it got to that point tho dunno.

oh and ROT obv but if he's bluffing there after the clock argument he would show you the bluff about 100% of the time.

long after u busted i asked him what he had and he even explained his logic to me....then at the end of play he came over and started talking about it again but said he thought he'd played it really bad

[Donko]

Why gay-bet the flop? Am I missing something?

[marcin123]

Why gay-bet the flop? Am I missing something?

seems ok to me... 1/3 - 45% of the pot seems about right on the flop...

[MC]

Oh and I don't see how we're under-repped, how is he gonna think we'd play KK here?

Bet 1.5k, check-call, check feels kinda soft for top-set that's all.

Did you look at the board?



PS. btw what's a POW? (in this context)

Board seems about as dry as you can get imo...

Pay off Wizard

[the rage]

Very nicely described hand. Thanks for sharing it. I think his snap call on the flop should, in theory, rule out the likely starting hands that you beat, such as AK, AA,TT or JJ. Everything seems to point to AcQc. The river snap shove, again seems to point to him having the nuts.

[GreekStein]

Why gay-bet the flop? Am I missing something?

seems ok to me... 1/3 - 45% of the pot seems about right on the flop...

Meh I think if we're 4-balling it pre we should be betting more on the flop.

I like these smaller bets (in relation to pot size) when there are antes in play or stacks are shallower.

[railtard1]

Ok, thanks for some good responses. I think its a cool hand as the whole dynamic of the hand changes if i bet more on the flop ~3k.
As for him snapping the flop i ruled out TT as he must at least consider raising. He cant have JJ as he checks back the turn nearly all of the time (unless he see's it as a reverse blocking bet or summink to get a cheaper showdown, but then he doesnt shove river obviously).
The main issue is (despite mr keys comments) that we dont flop top set all that often in a live poker tourney... and we flop it in 4bet pots hardly ever... so i dont think its as easy as snap folding and not even considering it.

I am glad the general feeling is that a fold is fine / correct in this spot cos i was pretty tilted about it afterwards. I am fine with my fold, especially with how soft my table was and how soft GUKPT's are.

Does anyone think he can be value shoving a worse hand here ever?

[EvilPie]

Following your small flop bet which just gets flatted I'd prefer to fire small again on the turn. About 3k maintains the pattern nicely.

It'll stop any bluffing and make the hand easier to play oop.

Assuming he flats the turn we get an easy bet/fold river for another 5k where we get paid off if he has got one of the other sets.

As played I really can't see that he's bluffing. Fold has to be the way and if he's bluffed us then well played sir.

You've made this tough because you know how weak your line looks. If you maintain a strong line you don't level yourself in to thinking the other guy's good enough to notice you look weak and bluff shove in to you.

[dakky]

You've made this tough because you know how weak your line looks. If you maintain a strong line you don't level yourself in to thinking the other guy's good enough to notice you look weak and bluff shove in to you.

qft