what next?

[GreekStein]

lolz

[BulldozerD]

well no reads here (and they would be useful) but i wouldn't be cold 4betting pre without a plan (not keen on sizing but meh) for what i want to do if called or jammed on.

if you aren't sure what to do here i'd prefer an open fold pre without more information, no matter how nitty it sounds.

[Shawrie85]

When you've made it so big pre, i cant see why you'd be thinking of folding any flop tbh.

I take it you were calling a shove if he jammed pre (instead he donked off 1/3 his stack) so get it now.

Pre-flop i
RRRaise to 12ish>Flat>Fold>Jam

[marcin123]

raise less pre imo... make it 12999 and call a jam... as played you gotta shove the flop...

[Ironside]

the reason for the 21k was to try and get them to shove or fold with 2 big stacks involved with me

i didnt count on the flat call

looking back a smaller raise would of been better

[MANTIS01]

the reason for the 21k was to try and get them to shove or fold with 2 big stacks involved with me

i didnt count on the flat call

looking back a smaller raise would of been better

How many hands do you realistically 4bet vs 2 big stacks in this spot? Prob 3. So with such a polarized range I don't know how you get it in vs worse hands preflop. Flatting the 3bet offers you a better opportunity to get it in preflop vs a range you have a fighting chance against. If our strat is to quit if we don't hit then why not flat the 3bet and make that strat significantly cheaper? I do agree with the smaller 4bet though if that's your preference because I fear the bigger 4bet narrows our range from 3 hands to 1. Your 4bet size is designed to get them to shove (which they don't do with worse) or fold (which you wouldn't want them to do holding A-A), so yeah bad bet size.

[thetank]

We've got AK that's missed and we're talking about value shoving??

I have a brief and rather reducitionist explanation. Starts with assumption that pot is so big and villain has so little left compared to pot that all thoughts of folding are to be put out of our mind.

We're against either a donk or a non donk.


Non donk

All his chips are going in the middle pretty much all the time (given a nondonks likely holdings , it's tough to imagine a scenario where he's both a nondonk who took that line pre and he'll check it down).
Given that we can't fold there's not much of a problem in putting the chips in first.
We've nothing to lose as it's makes no difference. We can just look at scenario when opponent is a donk when deciding whether to bet or not.

Donk

This is glorious, we have abs. no read on opponent but because of above we can proceed as if he's defo a donk.
Ridic thin value bets possible when you have to call anyway and likelyhood of opponent betting is very high.
AK could be good...



I prefer to check call here, but value betting isn't horrible.

[EvilPie]

We've got AK that's missed and we're talking about value shoving??

I have a brief and rather reducitionist explanation. Starts with assumption that pot is so big and villain has so little left compared to pot that all thoughts of folding are to be put out of our mind.

We're against either a donk or a non donk.


Non donk

All his chips are going in the middle pretty much all the time (given a nondonks likely holdings , it's tough to imagine a scenario where he's both a nondonk who took that line pre and he'll check it down).
Given that we can't fold there's not much of a problem in putting the chips in first.
We've nothing to lose as it's makes no difference. We can just look at scenario when opponent is a donk when deciding whether to bet or not.

Donk

This is glorious, we have abs. no read on opponent but because of above we can proceed as if he's defo a donk.
Ridic thin value bets possible when you have to call anyway and likelyhood of opponent betting is very high.
AK could be good...



I prefer to check call here, but value betting isn't horrible.

Sound reasoning but I still don't like it.

We've made a mistake by raising too much pre and now we're going to compound that error by gifting our oppo the rest of our stack.

For the reasons you've stated we know we're getting called because of the size of the pot and how much our oppo has put in there. I know we're hoping he's a donk but I don't think we can rely on that here. Surely even the very worst players don't call this 4 bet with a hand that we're beating?

[thetank]

We've made a mistake by raising too much pre and now we're going to compound that error by considering a fold at any point

fyp imo

I'll agree to disagree.

Certainly agree that line pre is tez though. It looks like we don't want to play the hand but we don't want to fold. It's like a ridic overshove and telegraphs our hand as either AK or JJ.

[dakky]

13-14k pre.

As played check back turn. I think jamming this flop is setting money on fire ~95% of the time after he calls off this much pre