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Author Topic: DTD £300 DEEPSTACK ... MAY  (Read 66437 times)
BAM
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« Reply #795 on: May 11, 2010, 01:03:34 PM »

Is this Ariston ?

Rich can we put mantis in the well plskthx
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DMorgan
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« Reply #796 on: May 11, 2010, 03:06:48 PM »

those 8's you mention I would definitely 4bet jam from the button

I'm pretty skeptical about that....you'd 4bet jam 88 from the button but you don't agree with doing it with AK?

The bottom line is that <40BBs deep, getting AK vs KK 5 handed against an aggro player is a cold deck. You should be going broke with the AK 100% of the time. End of story.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #797 on: May 11, 2010, 03:18:21 PM »

those 8's you mention I would definitely 4bet jam from the button

I'm pretty skeptical about that....you'd 4bet jam 88 from the button but you don't agree with doing it with AK?

The bottom line is that <40BBs deep, getting AK vs KK 5 handed against an aggro player is a cold deck. You should be going broke with the AK 100% of the time. End of story.

Sorry, where do I say I don't agree with doing it with A-K?
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #798 on: May 11, 2010, 03:29:39 PM »

That said talk to me about your plan for opening the button when you expect the bb to be 3betting wide? Because that's actually the key in this hand. I would suggest that you could apply everything you've just said in reverse if you open from the button and as expected get 3bet

Oh and no, this is wrong. Leverage is when you use some of your chips to force your opponent to make a decision for all of theirs. After the 3bet, even just clicking it back will leave the button committed, so we're basically making a decision for all our chips to win the smaller amount that our opponent has bet, the opposite of leverage.

And when you 4bet smash from the button how do you think that affects your leverage for the rest of this bubble dynamic? You think the rest of the players will be 3betting light vs you? To say a 4bet risks your stack and means winning just what's in the pot is again playing the hand in a vacuum.
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Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
the sicilian
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« Reply #799 on: May 11, 2010, 04:38:31 PM »

 
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Blatch
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« Reply #800 on: May 11, 2010, 04:42:58 PM »



and the best bit between you and George hasnt quietened down Wink
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the sicilian
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« Reply #801 on: May 11, 2010, 04:52:54 PM »

im a live nit what can i say.....

difference of opinion is what makes this game great..
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« Reply #802 on: May 11, 2010, 04:54:19 PM »

im a live nit what can i say.....

difference of opinion is what makes this game great..

Stop making sensible posts and get back to entertaining me Smiley
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the sicilian
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« Reply #803 on: May 11, 2010, 05:00:11 PM »

im a live nit what can i say.....

difference of opinion is what makes this game great..

Stop making sensible posts and get back to entertaining me Smiley

LOLZ...i cant ...im more sensitive than mantis obv....
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« Reply #804 on: May 11, 2010, 05:00:16 PM »

im a live nit what can i say.....

difference of opinion is what makes this game great..

Stop making sensible posts and get back to entertaining me Smiley

just come to Luton any night of the week Cheesy
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #805 on: May 11, 2010, 05:42:35 PM »

That said talk to me about your plan for opening the button when you expect the bb to be 3betting wide? Because that's actually the key in this hand. I would suggest that you could apply everything you've just said in reverse if you open from the button and as expected get 3bet

Oh and no, this is wrong. Leverage is when you use some of your chips to force your opponent to make a decision for all of theirs. After the 3bet, even just clicking it back will leave the button committed, so we're basically making a decision for all our chips to win the smaller amount that our opponent has bet, the opposite of leverage.

And when you 4bet smash from the button how do you think that affects your leverage for the rest of this bubble dynamic? You think the rest of the players will be 3betting light vs you? To say a 4bet risks your stack and means winning just what's in the pot is again playing the hand in a vacuum.

define leverage

You've done a good job defining what leverage is already. But check it out. I put you in the bb and you prove what great leverage you have when 3betting the button. Then I move you to the button where you tell me you open atc because of the great leverage you have. No doubt if I moved you to another seat you could prove how easily it is to dominate the shorter stacks, so you should open wide. So all simple enough to prove in isolation. But if you try and put them all together at the same time in the context of the game how much leverage have you actually got? In this pretty fast game with a maniac image you'll actually have very little leverage. You think leverage is just maths? You think you can raise every hand from every position and win it all? To max your leverage you need a credible image which means making choices. I questioned why your 1st choice is 3betting the aggro CL oop. You proved you have leverage in a vacuum.
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Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

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taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
GreekStein
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« Reply #806 on: May 11, 2010, 06:21:42 PM »

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George2Loose
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« Reply #807 on: May 11, 2010, 07:22:47 PM »

We should be paying James Keys for these posts.

GG mantis. U had a good run (well when I say good run I actually mean a gentle stroll)
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Ole Ole Ole Ole!
GreekStein
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« Reply #808 on: May 11, 2010, 07:30:34 PM »

We should be paying James Keys for these posts.

GG mantis. U had a good run (well when I say good run I actually mean a gentle stroll)

we will be paying soon. Smiley
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #809 on: May 11, 2010, 07:53:19 PM »

Actually I'll save you the bother and just repeat myself:

Leverage is the concept employed when you make a small bet that forces your opponent to a decision for all their chips while risking only a fraction of yours.

Do you see how a 4bet shove does not fall under this category?

Well that's the definition. But in reality you're talking about a lever and not leverage. If you look at your lever as a small bet that forces your opponent to a decision for all their chips and nothing else you can always prove that is a truth by looking at the stack sizes on paper. So you could raise every hand right? But if your bets lack credibility the actual weight you're trying to lever increases as your opponents resist more. So yeah your lever is the same length, the fulcrum is in the same place, but because the weight is heavier your overall leverage diminishes. You're saying the numbers prove the decision for your opponent is the same regardless of whether they believe you or not, but clearly it isn't.

I can see how the 4bet shove increases your overall leverage in the game.
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Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
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