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Author Topic: DTD £300 DEEPSTACK ... MAY  (Read 127961 times)
DMorgan
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« Reply #750 on: May 09, 2010, 05:16:27 AM »

To be honest if you haven't got it by now its probably not worth losing sleep over

I think you're the same guy (ignore if not, or if you forgot about this), but I'm the guy who came over to your table a while back, and my mate told me you was all in. Then I started saying, 'ooh look, you have queens in your hand, and there's another queen on the board!' Obviously, I then found out you weren't all in, and there was a guy still left to act.


Heh, yeah I remember the hand....I don't think george was calling anyway. He folded middle pair and a gutshot or something like that. Kinda serves me right for picking up my cards before the guy has acted...then again I am a massive tellbox Tongue


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DMorgan
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« Reply #751 on: May 09, 2010, 05:19:44 AM »

One other thing to consider, if I'm KK man here I almost certainly fold to the shove

Thread goes to the next level.

For what its worth i've heard that if you only ever play aces, they win every time 
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #752 on: May 09, 2010, 09:20:30 AM »

So lots of answers about how you can 3bet premium for value and at the same time 3bet lots of junk profitably in the same spot. I think a filter is a good idea actually. If I could have an advanced thinking one it would be useful.

It's called a range.

1. You can 3bet the premiums for value because, well because they're premiums yo, they're always value.
2. You can 3bet the junk when people think you 3bet the premiums. Mostly they're right because (see point 1).

I hope this beat your filter. GL out there kiddo.

So your 3betting range is a very wide atc in this spot, from premium to junk. Kings man says Claw isn't folding to 3bets (see point 2), and Claw says she expects kings man to be 3betting light (see point 2). So when you 3bet your junk vs the CL you'll be playing an inflated pot oop with a poor hand and a chip disadvanatage 5-handed on the ft bubble, that's if you don't get 4bet. And you can overcome all those disadvantages because it's a range yo and you could have premium yo. Yes, very good. I'd prefer to implement such a wide 3betting strat when I'm not disadvantaged in every aspect of the hand and retain some FE. That's called a range as well, it's just a better one yo.

So your 3betting range is..?

Pretty tight actually. Across the 2 tables most of the other players have less than 30bb's. So 5-handed with the blinds and antes the game is playing pretty shallow. That said this ft bubble dynamic isn't going to go on for very long, less than 10mins in fact. So 3betting junk vs the aggro CL who isn't folding, when I'm oop, and the dynamic is temporary isn't really on my agenda. My 3betting range would be wider if the game was deeper of course, but it's not, so I'd play tight vs the CL but open wide and/or 3bet the 30bb stacks. Thus making the hands I'm playing much easier for myself. A wide 3betting range vs the CL seems pretty spewy in this spot. What's more the CL has actually said she expected the bb to have a wide 3betting range, so the idea our 3bet would rep premium fails. So you 3bet junk because....?
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George2Loose
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« Reply #753 on: May 09, 2010, 10:50:14 AM »

So lots of answers about how you can 3bet premium for value and at the same time 3bet lots of junk profitably in the same spot. I think a filter is a good idea actually. If I could have an advanced thinking one it would be useful.

It's called a range.

1. You can 3bet the premiums for value because, well because they're premiums yo, they're always value.
2. You can 3bet the junk when people think you 3bet the premiums. Mostly they're right because (see point 1).

I hope this beat your filter. GL out there kiddo.

So your 3betting range is a very wide atc in this spot, from premium to junk. Kings man says Claw isn't folding to 3bets (see point 2), and Claw says she expects kings man to be 3betting light (see point 2). So when you 3bet your junk vs the CL you'll be playing an inflated pot oop with a poor hand and a chip disadvanatage 5-handed on the ft bubble, that's if you don't get 4bet. And you can overcome all those disadvantages because it's a range yo and you could have premium yo. Yes, very good. I'd prefer to implement such a wide 3betting strat when I'm not disadvantaged in every aspect of the hand and retain some FE. That's called a range as well, it's just a better one yo.

So your 3betting range is..?

Pretty tight actually. Across the 2 tables most of the other players have less than 30bb's. So 5-handed with the blinds and antes the game is playing pretty shallow. That said this ft bubble dynamic isn't going to go on for very long, less than 10mins in fact. So 3betting junk vs the aggro CL who isn't folding, when I'm oop, and the dynamic is temporary isn't really on my agenda. My 3betting range would be wider if the game was deeper of course, but it's not, so I'd play tight vs the CL but open wide and/or 3bet the 30bb stacks. Thus making the hands I'm playing much easier for myself. A wide 3betting range vs the CL seems pretty spewy in this spot. What's more the CL has actually said she expected the bb to have a wide 3betting range, so the idea our 3bet would rep premium fails. So you 3bet junk because....?

Mantis when you say tight- can we have an actual range?
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the sicilian
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« Reply #754 on: May 09, 2010, 11:40:33 AM »

I cannot believe I have just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

You have AK on the button on a five handed table and an aggro player reraises you from the BB.

You should be getting your chips in the middle so fast there should be scorch marks on the table.

I think we established somewhere in this thread that although the bb is considered an aggressive player he had been passive of late which made a few think his range would be a lot narrower... i just think here we have a very specific situation here where a fold is a considered play... i dont think saying there is only one way to play this hand like nearly all hands is right...thats got to be narrow and naive thinking...keith i know your an excellent player and better than most of us put together but its just a point of view before everyone gets their flaming rockets out..i just don't like going from cl to out without considering all options..
This thought process of never backing down has got to be a little flawed and is born of the internet generation where it doesnt matter if you get knocked out as theres another tourney in 30 seconds.... its well documented that AK is the most overplayed hand in hold em

we have a live ft bubble situation here where 3 betting wide is more exception than rule,and as for being results orientated like i said i don't care if the guy shows me 3 6 os whilst smiling smugly to himself..so what....i still not unhappy with my play....im playing to win not to flip coins when i dont have to and reducing the outcome of my tournament to pure luck
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George2Loose
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« Reply #755 on: May 09, 2010, 12:15:35 PM »

I cannot believe I have just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

You have AK on the button on a five handed table and an aggro player reraises you from the BB.

You should be getting your chips in the middle so fast there should be scorch marks on the table.

I think we established somewhere in this thread that although the bb is considered an aggressive player he had been passive of late which made a few think his range would be a lot narrower... i just think here we have a very specific situation here where a fold is a considered play... i dont think saying there is only one way to play this hand like nearly all hands is right...thats got to be narrow and naive thinking...keith i know your an excellent player and better than most of us put together but its just a point of view before everyone gets their flaming rockets out..i just don't like going from cl to out without considering all options..
This thought process of never backing down has got to be a little flawed and is born of the internet generation where it doesnt matter if you get knocked out as theres another tourney in 30 seconds.... its well documented that AK is the most overplayed hand in hold em

we have a live ft bubble situation here where 3 betting wide is more exception than rule,and as for being results orientated like i said i don't care if the guy shows me 3 6 os whilst smiling smugly to himself..so what....i still not unhappy with my play....im playing to win not to flip coins when i dont have to and reducing the outcome of my tournament to pure luck


Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?
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the sicilian
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« Reply #756 on: May 09, 2010, 12:22:29 PM »

I cannot believe I have just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

You have AK on the button on a five handed table and an aggro player reraises you from the BB.

You should be getting your chips in the middle so fast there should be scorch marks on the table.

I think we established somewhere in this thread that although the bb is considered an aggressive player he had been passive of late which made a few think his range would be a lot narrower... i just think here we have a very specific situation here where a fold is a considered play... i dont think saying there is only one way to play this hand like nearly all hands is right...thats got to be narrow and naive thinking...keith i know your an excellent player and better than most of us put together but its just a point of view before everyone gets their flaming rockets out..i just don't like going from cl to out without considering all options..
This thought process of never backing down has got to be a little flawed and is born of the internet generation where it doesnt matter if you get knocked out as theres another tourney in 30 seconds.... its well documented that AK is the most overplayed hand in hold em

we have a live ft bubble situation here where 3 betting wide is more exception than rule,and as for being results orientated like i said i don't care if the guy shows me 3 6 os whilst smiling smugly to himself..so what....i still not unhappy with my play....im playing to win not to flip coins when i dont have to and reducing the outcome of my tournament to pure luck


Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

he said he is capable of 3b junk but he hasnt actually done this v hero in recent hands, im sure he had plenty of junk to hero open raise previousley so why not pull the trigger previousley..as much as young mr morgan have us believe he has in fact tightened up as subconciousley he doesnt actually want to get involved with the cl on the ft bubble...its a lot easier to be 3b when u look down at kings

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

there have been numerous articles over the last few years

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

as i have said i think cstack..positions..tournament stage come together to make this a specific situation...v any of the others who have 200k etc its insta ship and on many many occassions its insta allin as i have and we all have many times.. i dont think you can think ur committed with ak pre with only 4% of your stack in the middle
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Claw75
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« Reply #757 on: May 09, 2010, 02:31:41 PM »

v any of the others who have 200k etc its insta ship

this doesn't make any sense to me at all.  So it's an insta ship against anyone who has already committed themselves to the hand and is extremely unlikely to be 3-betting light?  The whole point of shoving against the other big stack is that we have fold equity - we're not really wanting a call here.  If we insta ship against a 200k stack we're basically making the decision to flip for half our stack which, from what you've said earlier in the thread, I'm surprised you'd want to do without a seconds thought?
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the sicilian
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« Reply #758 on: May 09, 2010, 02:54:31 PM »

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

Think we have an answer
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the sicilian
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« Reply #759 on: May 09, 2010, 02:55:18 PM »

v any of the others who have 200k etc its insta ship

this doesn't make any sense to me at all.  So it's an insta ship against anyone who has already committed themselves to the hand and is extremely unlikely to be 3-betting light?  The whole point of shoving against the other big stack is that we have fold equity - we're not really wanting a call here.  If we insta ship against a 200k stack we're basically making the decision to flip for half our stack which, from what you've said earlier in the thread, I'm surprised you'd want to do without a seconds thought?

Flipping against people who cant knock you out ...
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #760 on: May 09, 2010, 03:09:43 PM »

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

It seems like I'm putting all the content into this discussion about 3betting ranges. Why don't you and George explain how you can profitably 3bet atc in this spot and why that's such a superior strat in negotiating this shallow ft bubble dynamic than mine. I mean, I'm sure it's shit hot poker, but I'd still like to hear the theory.
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« Reply #761 on: May 09, 2010, 03:13:12 PM »

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

It seems like I'm putting all the content into this discussion about 3betting ranges. Why don't you and George explain how you can profitably 3bet atc in this spot and why that's such a superior strat in negotiating this shallow ft bubble dynamic than mine. I mean, I'm sure it's shit hot poker, but I'd still like to hear the theory.

why not give your range here? I mean youve been asked enough times
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George2Loose
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« Reply #762 on: May 09, 2010, 08:46:41 PM »

I cannot believe I have just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading the last couple of pages of this thread.

You have AK on the button on a five handed table and an aggro player reraises you from the BB.

You should be getting your chips in the middle so fast there should be scorch marks on the table.

I think we established somewhere in this thread that although the bb is considered an aggressive player he had been passive of late which made a few think his range would be a lot narrower... i just think here we have a very specific situation here where a fold is a considered play... i dont think saying there is only one way to play this hand like nearly all hands is right...thats got to be narrow and naive thinking...keith i know your an excellent player and better than most of us put together but its just a point of view before everyone gets their flaming rockets out..i just don't like going from cl to out without considering all options..
This thought process of never backing down has got to be a little flawed and is born of the internet generation where it doesnt matter if you get knocked out as theres another tourney in 30 seconds.... its well documented that AK is the most overplayed hand in hold em

we have a live ft bubble situation here where 3 betting wide is more exception than rule,and as for being results orientated like i said i don't care if the guy shows me 3 6 os whilst smiling smugly to himself..so what....i still not unhappy with my play....im playing to win not to flip coins when i dont have to and reducing the outcome of my tournament to pure luck


Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

Villian has already said he is 3 betting junk.

he said he is capable of 3b junk but he hasnt actually done this v hero in recent hands, im sure he had plenty of junk to hero open raise previousley so why not pull the trigger previousley..as much as young mr morgan have us believe he has in fact tightened up as subconciousley he doesnt actually want to get involved with the cl on the ft bubble...its a lot easier to be 3b when u look down at kings

Where is it documented that AK is overplayed.

there have been numerous articles over the last few years

If you're gonna raise/fold AK on the button why don't you just open fold?

as i have said i think cstack..positions..tournament stage come together to make this a specific situation...v any of the others who have 200k etc its insta ship and on many many occassions its insta allin as i have and we all have many times.. i dont think you can think ur committed with ak pre with only 4% of your stack in the middle

Dean what do u think he does with AQ here? Or pocket 10s? Or AK? You are getting caught up on the fact he had kings. Why didn't you say something earlier when Claire won a monster pot with QQ vs AK? That was just as big a flip at that stage of the tournament. What if Claire had Aces? Would u be saying young Mr Dean Morgan should have folded Kings? After all he is involved with the only stack who can bust him on the bubble of a final table.

Please can I have a link to the said articles about the over use of AK.

Right so I'm asking again, if you're going to raise/fold AK why not just open fold so you have nothing invested? IE: Fold to the final table is basically what you're advocating here?
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George2Loose
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« Reply #763 on: May 09, 2010, 08:49:17 PM »

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

It seems like I'm putting all the content into this discussion about 3betting ranges. Why don't you and George explain how you can profitably 3bet atc in this spot and why that's such a superior strat in negotiating this shallow ft bubble dynamic than mine. I mean, I'm sure it's shit hot poker, but I'd still like to hear the theory.

why not give your range here? I mean youve been asked enough times

I have not said you can profitably 3 bet atc. In fact I'm not advocating it at all. What I am saying is that my range for 3 betting here is either premiums or air. I think you've picked up on Dean's comment about Claire not folding too much and clung onto it. I suspect Claire is only 4-betting the top end of her range so 3 betting air here could be profitable- again it would depend on dynamics and history. I'm certainly going to be putting the pressure on at this stage.

As Me, Keys and Greeky have said would be nice to know you're 3 betting range and how you would react to a 4 bet with each of these hands.
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« Reply #764 on: May 09, 2010, 08:51:10 PM »

If it's folded round to me in the cutoff in a cash game where I and my opponents have 100bbs and I have 0% of my stack in the middle, I'm committed with AK.

And +1 to George's question to Mantis, what hands are you 3betting exactly?

It seems like I'm putting all the content into this discussion about 3betting ranges. Why don't you and George explain how you can profitably 3bet atc in this spot and why that's such a superior strat in negotiating this shallow ft bubble dynamic than mine. I mean, I'm sure it's shit hot poker, but I'd still like to hear the theory.

why not give your range here? I mean youve been asked enough times

I have not said you can profitably 3 bet atc. In fact I'm not advocating it at all. What I am saying is that my range for 3 betting here is either premiums or air. I think you've picked up on Dean's comment about Claire not folding too much and clung onto it. I suspect Claire is only 4-betting the top end of her range so 3 betting air here could be profitable- again it would depend on dynamics and history. I'm certainly going to be putting the pressure on at this stage.

As Me, Keys and Greeky have said would be nice to know you're 3 betting range and how you would react to a 4 bet with each of these hands.

Mantis would have to make the antes one time before he could tell us an answer
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