results

[redsimon]

If we a had a pure PR system the BNP would have won 12 seats on Thursday

Now that may not give much influence, but it is to my mind the major downside to pure PR...the voice in legislative corridors it gives to extreme parties

but why should parties, however extreme or abhorrant (to most of us) their views, be denied a voice if they are representing a significant minority of people who voted them in? That's true democracy imo.  Of course if I had my way I'd support a system that didn't let any tories in, but that's never gonna happen

Because I think that it is reasonable for a point of view to have a certain quorum before it is taken seriously in the democratic process. 

Which is of course exactly how PR systems work in reality, with a percentage threshold that has to be reached before seats are allocated. But that doesn't make for such  extreme, scaremongering headlines.

it's not scaremongering, it's debating skillz

In Germany it's 5%, which probably shuts out the BNP. But under first past the post people don't always vote for who they want because they know they can't win - it's not inconceivable that their share of the vote could go up if PR was introduced.

And it doesn't alter the fact that a party who less than 10% of the country vote for could end up as part of the Government.

That could conceivably happen now, because if we have a Lab-Lib coalition they are gonna need the SNP and Plaid Cymru (along with the SDLP, but thats a given) with them to get a majority of seats, and I can see someone giving them a seat on Government to get them in.

Scarily enough, not only did the aforementioned parties have less than 10% of the vote, they also had less votes than the BNP!!

They also stood in less seats than fascists did?

[Jon MW]

If we a had a pure PR system the BNP would have won 12 seats on Thursday

Now that may not give much influence, but it is to my mind the major downside to pure PR...the voice in legislative corridors it gives to extreme parties

but why should parties, however extreme or abhorrant (to most of us) their views, be denied a voice if they are representing a significant minority of people who voted them in? That's true democracy imo.  Of course if I had my way I'd support a system that didn't let any tories in, but that's never gonna happen

Because I think that it is reasonable for a point of view to have a certain quorum before it is taken seriously in the democratic process. 

Which is of course exactly how PR systems work in reality, with a percentage threshold that has to be reached before seats are allocated. But that doesn't make for such  extreme, scaremongering headlines.

it's not scaremongering, it's debating skillz

In Germany it's 5%, which probably shuts out the BNP. But under first past the post people don't always vote for who they want because they know they can't win - it's not inconceivable that their share of the vote could go up if PR was introduced.

And it doesn't alter the fact that a party who less than 10% of the country vote for could end up as part of the Government.

That could conceivably happen now, because if we have a Lab-Lib coalition they are gonna need the SNP and Plaid Cymru (along with the SDLP, but thats a given) with them to get a majority of seats, and I can see someone giving them a seat on Government to get them in.

Scarily enough, not only did the aforementioned parties have less than 10% of the vote, they also had less votes than the BNP!!

You can still get it occurring like now with first past the post

But only about once every 20 or 30 years, with Proportional Representation you'll get it every election.

(or the alternative where the Lib Dems are constantly in government)

[Rod Paradise]

If we a had a pure PR system the BNP would have won 12 seats on Thursday

Now that may not give much influence, but it is to my mind the major downside to pure PR...the voice in legislative corridors it gives to extreme parties

but why should parties, however extreme or abhorrant (to most of us) their views, be denied a voice if they are representing a significant minority of people who voted them in? That's true democracy imo.  Of course if I had my way I'd support a system that didn't let any tories in, but that's never gonna happen

Because I think that it is reasonable for a point of view to have a certain quorum before it is taken seriously in the democratic process. 

Which is of course exactly how PR systems work in reality, with a percentage threshold that has to be reached before seats are allocated. But that doesn't make for such  extreme, scaremongering headlines.

it's not scaremongering, it's debating skillz

In Germany it's 5%, which probably shuts out the BNP. But under first past the post people don't always vote for who they want because they know they can't win - it's not inconceivable that their share of the vote could go up if PR was introduced.

And it doesn't alter the fact that a party who less than 10% of the country vote for could end up as part of the Government.

That could conceivably happen now, because if we have a Lab-Lib coalition they are gonna need the SNP and Plaid Cymru (along with the SDLP, but thats a given) with them to get a majority of seats, and I can see someone giving them a seat on Government to get them in.

Scarily enough, not only did the aforementioned parties have less than 10% of the vote, they also had less votes than the BNP!!

They also stood in less seats than fascists did?

Quite a few less:

SNP   59 candidates 491376 votes of  2465720 votes cast 19.93%  of votes cast.

BNP   338 candidates 564321 votes of 15259156 votes cast 3.70% of votes cast.

* Results from downloaded results spreadsheet from the Telegraph - BNP total a little bit (600 odd) higher than I've seen reported elsewhere. Still makes the point.

Now trying to work out how many seat's they'd have got under the Scottish system.

[david3103]

1. - PR doesn't mean dividing all the seats directly in poroportion to the vote.

2. - Coalition is not the only way around the issues arising from a balanced hung parliament, and although this time round the LibDems may end up with Cabinet Posts it doesn't mean they would always be 'in government' in any form.

3. - If David Cameron can't negotiate his way around the current position with the strength of position he holds then he isn't fit to be PM. The Conservatives are the only party with a realisitic chance of making any sort of agreement which would give them a strong enough position to do anything. The LibDems are the most obvious partner in this, but not the only partner.

[Rod Paradise]

Using the PR system currently in use for the NI Assembly & the Scottish Parliament, I've calculated the following results:

Party      Current   PR   Votes
Party   Current   PR   Votes
Con   306   252   10706388
Lab   258   214   8601349
LD   57   147   6827832
DUP   8   5   168216
SNP   6   11   491376
SF   5   5   171942
PC   3   4   165394
SDLP   3   3   110970
Ind   1   2   192899
Gren   1   1   285616
Allinc   1   1   42762
UCUNF   0   3   102361
BNP   0   1   564321
UKIP   0   0   917175




Note 1: This is a mathematical calculation - in reality new larger constituencies would return 8 MPs each, so the individual constituencies now would be amalgamated.

The method seems to apportion seats more evenly according to amount of votes cast.
Minority parties without a 'heartland' suffer under it as other minority parties with less votes get a seat but they don't (UKIP being best example)

%ages show a more even spread although still a bit skewed to the big parties.

Party_   Seat%   PR%_   Vote %
Con___   47.1%   38.8%   36.1%
Lab___   39.8%   33.0%   29.0%
LD____   8.78%   22.7%   23.0%
DUP__   1.23%   0.77%   0.57%
SNP__   0.92%   1.69%   1.66%
SF____   0.77%   0.77%   0.58%
PC____   0.46%   0.62%   0.56%
SDLP_   0.46%   0.46%   0.37%
Ind____   0.15%   0.31%   0.65%
Green   0.15%   0.15%   0.96%


Sorry about the alignment

[TightEnd]

BBC Political reporter Laura Kuenssberg is the definition of a rising star. What a watch she has been for five weeks now. Different gravy

[technolog]

BBC Political reporter Laura Kuenssberg is the definition of a rising star. What a watch she has been for five weeks now. Different gravy

As a Sky News devotee (hush) I haven't had the pleasure. Do you have any video evidence of her talents you could post?

[thetank]

...or just a purdy picture would do.

We'll take your word that she's good at the talky talky news stuff.

[TightEnd]

best I can do

[Bongo]

New Tory poster is out today:

I've never voted Tory before - turns out I didn't need to, thanks to Nick

[TightEnd]

Outline of a deal in place, Brown statement coming this pm I am told


get on those 24 hour news channels, to which I am totally addicted.

[Josedinho]

Any ideas what we're going for?
Is it definitely Cameron as PM and just whether it Lib Dems have formed a formal coalition or not or has the Lib-Lab coalition still got a chance?

[TightEnd]

Any ideas what we're going for?
Is it definitely Cameron as PM and just whether it Lib Dems have formed a formal coalition or not or has the Lib-Lab coalition still got a chance?

No idea here. Just idle gossip that things have moved on and if anyone is as sad as me and addicted to this stuff, you might like to keep a look out

[Bongo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/liveevent/

For those not near a TV.

Contains such tilting statements as:

James from Edinburgh writes: 81% of Scots voted for Labour, Lib Dems or the SNP, with the Tories only winning one seat out of 59. Nick Clegg is selling out on his party's principles and will only ensure that there will now be two hated political parties north of the border.

[TightEnd]

seen on Twitter

 @Queen_UK: Ok, listen up boys. Decision day. It's not that fucking difficult.