UKIPT back2back hands

[EvilPie]

Hand 1: If villain's decent I just get it in. Our 3 bet looks like a squeeze so he can be 4 betting light. Against most players though I flat the AK and play a flop with position and a nice hand.

Hand 2: Just fold to the 3 bet pre. I'm never getting 60 bigs in with JJ in a live game. Possibly flat to set mine but don't level myself in to thinking my overpair's ahead when the board runs out like this. I don't really love the flat because we aren't deep enough. Much prefer to just pass it.

As played I really have no idea. As I said, if I flat it's to set mine and we haven't hit so I sigh fold.

I actually prefer to donk lead the flop if we're looking to invest any chips at all without a set. At least then if we're planning on getting the lot in we can get it in first rather than having to sigh call knowing we're behind because we've somehow got ourselves in to a 120bb pot despite only having a pair of Jacks.

[George2Loose]

Easy to say flat with AK after you've been 4 bet. Marc surely a player as aggressive as you is always 3 betting here.

Hand 1: I play it as you do James although it sucks.

Hand 2: Bleh. I probably call flop and see what villian does on turn although as described he's probably never checking. I'd rather cut of my fingers then 4 bet fold pre.

[chrisbruce]

Hand  1 - I play as you played it - sigh fold

Hand 2 - You have to 4 bet the JJ as it is affected by the dynamics  of the previous hand. If villan shoves its another sigh fold.
horrible spot as played and I would trust your read and sigh fold.

So, you 3-bet fold the AK in the first hand. Then, in hand 2, you 4 bet, again with the intention of folding?

Regardless of what MC has 3-bet folded in the first hand, to the table we have shown we are capable of raising and folding. So, why are we 4 betting here with the intention of folding? What is our 4 bet designed to do? It will either make them lay down all hands we are beating, but also let them win the hand with 5 betting, either with air (probably unlikely, but with dynamic possible), or with their genuine hands we are beat by. Sounds like this is a common raising to find out where you are situation, but this is so exploitable.

Thank you for explaining my reasoning for 4 betting. I want Villan to fold all hands I am beating and 5 bet all hands that beat me. I am rasing to find out information as to my opponents strength and I believe it will be cheaper to do this pre flop than post flop.
As said the hand is affected by the previous hand, some players may think you are tilt raising and may be trying to exploit that by 3 betting a marginal hand. 4 betting you are saying to the villan that I made a big pass in the last hand and I am not folding again, so lets get the chips in. If Villan is strong enough to move all in then you know you are beat.

JJ is a bitch to play post flop A or K on the flop and you hand is dead, 8 high flop as played and you still have no idea where you are.

As for exploitable, sure I can see some cute players flatting with AA in this spot and wp to them if they do.

Take hand 1 out of the reasoning and I play the hand differently.

[GreekStein]

Hand  1 - I play as you played it - sigh fold

Hand 2 - You have to 4 bet the JJ as it is affected by the dynamics  of the previous hand. If villan shoves its another sigh fold.
horrible spot as played and I would trust your read and sigh fold.

So, you 3-bet fold the AK in the first hand. Then, in hand 2, you 4 bet, again with the intention of folding?

Regardless of what MC has 3-bet folded in the first hand, to the table we have shown we are capable of raising and folding. So, why are we 4 betting here with the intention of folding? What is our 4 bet designed to do? It will either make them lay down all hands we are beating, but also let them win the hand with 5 betting, either with air (probably unlikely, but with dynamic possible), or with their genuine hands we are beat by. Sounds like this is a common raising to find out where you are situation, but this is so exploitable.

Thank you for explaining my reasoning for 4 betting. I want Villan to fold all hands I am beating and 5 bet all hands that beat me. I am rasing to find out information as to my opponents strength and I believe it will be cheaper to do this pre flop than post flop.
As said the hand is affected by the previous hand, some players may think you are tilt raising and may be trying to exploit that by 3 betting a marginal hand. 4 betting you are saying to the villan that I made a big pass in the last hand and I am not folding again, so lets get the chips in. If Villan is strong enough to move all in then you know you are beat.

JJ is a bitch to play post flop A or K on the flop and you hand is dead, 8 high flop as played and you still have no idea where you are.

As for exploitable, sure I can see some cute players flatting with AA in this spot and wp to them if they do.

Take hand 1 out of the reasoning and I play the hand differently.

Firstly I hate 'raising for information' but it's been mentioned over and over on PHA.

Just one observation though Chris - you make it seem like raising for information will always get you the correct information. It wont.

Chris that's not a fullproof way of getting information though. What if your opponent shoves a worse hand?

[George2Loose]

Hand  1 - I play as you played it - sigh fold

Hand 2 - You have to 4 bet the JJ as it is affected by the dynamics  of the previous hand. If villan shoves its another sigh fold.
horrible spot as played and I would trust your read and sigh fold.

So, you 3-bet fold the AK in the first hand. Then, in hand 2, you 4 bet, again with the intention of folding?

Regardless of what MC has 3-bet folded in the first hand, to the table we have shown we are capable of raising and folding. So, why are we 4 betting here with the intention of folding? What is our 4 bet designed to do? It will either make them lay down all hands we are beating, but also let them win the hand with 5 betting, either with air (probably unlikely, but with dynamic possible), or with their genuine hands we are beat by. Sounds like this is a common raising to find out where you are situation, but this is so exploitable.

Thank you for explaining my reasoning for 4 betting. I want Villan to fold all hands I am beating and 5 bet all hands that beat me. I am rasing to find out information as to my opponents strength and I believe it will be cheaper to do this pre flop than post flop.
As said the hand is affected by the previous hand, some players may think you are tilt raising and may be trying to exploit that by 3 betting a marginal hand. 4 betting you are saying to the villan that I made a big pass in the last hand and I am not folding again, so lets get the chips in. If Villan is strong enough to move all in then you know you are beat.

JJ is a bitch to play post flop A or K on the flop and you hand is dead, 8 high flop as played and you still have no idea where you are.

As for exploitable, sure I can see some cute players flatting with AA in this spot and wp to them if they do.

Take hand 1 out of the reasoning and I play the hand differently.

Firstly I hate 'raising for information' but it's been mentioned over and over on PHA.

Just one observation though Chris - you make it seem like raising for information will always get you the correct information. It wont.

Chris that's not a fullproof way of getting information though. What if your opponent shoves a worse hand?

Esp when raising for "info" costs you so much of your stack.

Also Cos is right- there's no reason why our opponent won't jam tens or maybe even in this spot given history. And if you're 4 bet folding you may as well have 24 off suit rather than jacks.

[Free_Rollin]

Hand  1 - I play as you played it - sigh fold

Hand 2 - You have to 4 bet the JJ as it is affected by the dynamics  of the previous hand. If villan shoves its another sigh fold.
horrible spot as played and I would trust your read and sigh fold.

So, you 3-bet fold the AK in the first hand. Then, in hand 2, you 4 bet, again with the intention of folding?

Regardless of what MC has 3-bet folded in the first hand, to the table we have shown we are capable of raising and folding. So, why are we 4 betting here with the intention of folding? What is our 4 bet designed to do? It will either make them lay down all hands we are beating, but also let them win the hand with 5 betting, either with air (probably unlikely, but with dynamic possible), or with their genuine hands we are beat by. Sounds like this is a common raising to find out where you are situation, but this is so exploitable.

Thank you for explaining my reasoning for 4 betting. I want Villan to fold all hands I am beating and 5 bet all hands that beat me. I am rasing to find out information as to my opponents strength and I believe it will be cheaper to do this pre flop than post flop.
As said the hand is affected by the previous hand, some players may think you are tilt raising and may be trying to exploit that by 3 betting a marginal hand. 4 betting you are saying to the villan that I made a big pass in the last hand and I am not folding again, so lets get the chips in. If Villan is strong enough to move all in then you know you are beat.

JJ is a bitch to play post flop A or K on the flop and you hand is dead, 8 high flop as played and you still have no idea where you are.

As for exploitable, sure I can see some cute players flatting with AA in this spot and wp to them if they do.

Take hand 1 out of the reasoning and I play the hand differently.

Replied to the post below in segments.

I want Villan to fold all hands I am beating and 5 bet all hands that beat me.

Umm, why? You don't want to extract value from tens/nines/etc? As for villain to 5 bet all hands that beat us, he may well do, but this probably doesn't make his whole range. What about bluffs? What about hands like AK? Do we want him to 5 bet this?

I am rasing to find out information as to my opponents strength and I believe it will be cheaper to do this pre flop than post flop.

Villain does not always fold hands we are beating.
Villain does not always shove hands we are beat by.

If Villan is strong enough to move all in then you know you are beat.

Have you never been bluffed before?

[NigDawG]

pretty sure you guys just got leveled

[AlexMartin]

pretty sure you guys just got leveled

+1

[GreekStein]

pretty sure you guys just got leveled

+1

I'll bet you £100 we didnt?

[EvilPie]

pretty sure you guys just got leveled

+1

-1

[NigDawG]

ok well that was about the only polite way i could reply to the strategy itt

[pleno1]

ak/jj = 72o

[the rage]

Re hand 2. I hope Chris Bruce's reply advocating the 4 bet wasn't a level. It actually made a lot of sense to me. I have to admit that i've seen the reveal, but, to me, 4-betting and taking down a nice pot when villian folds a worse hand seems pretty reasonable. Ok, if villian folds a lot of hands that we are miles ahead of such as TT we are missing out on a lot of value, but isn't it better to do this, rather than risk letting the villian outdraw us with many other hands in his, in this case, wide range, such as suited connectors, small pairs etc.
 I'm just concerned that by flat calling the three bet, we let the villiain see that flop, and possibly outdraw us, at his price, rather than one set by ourselves. And, as in this case, we don't really know where we stand in the hand.
 Dont worry, i can take it if you want to tell me that i'm taking rubbish. Try not to ridicule me too much though. Good Luck in Cov James, and anyone else who reads this that's playing there this week.

[chrisbruce]

[ ] I am often seen trying to level people on this forum

On a side note I am obviously not getting my share of premium starting hands in these tournaments.

I think thread has run its course and mc should do the decent thing and post how the hand ended.

[EvilPie]

Judging by how early he left I'd guess it went [ ] well.