Pretty Sure I butchered This.

[SuuPRlim]

Just got in from a live session where I played one hand which Im sure I butchered out of bounds.

playing £1/£2 ona table with very few randoms on it.

No sraddle Im i the BB with £1k, Chris Gill (villain from my other thread with the AQgreen) is UTG+1 about £1.1k deep, a VERY loose passive reg is in MP with about £400 and Micheal Pell, another young guy is on the btn with about £500 (he is quite tight but overlay capable of any play, very good)

Game was playing pretty solid, no real fancy moves and no eally big loosersin this session. not that many 3bets pre.

Chris opens to £10 and MP calls, Pell 3bets to £42. Now chris opens wide from anywhere and pell and him know each other.
Folded to me, I look down at  I can be prettty safe in the knowledge chris virtually NEVER 4balls with out KK+ here vs pell in this spot do I flat.

Thoguhts on the flat??

CHris calls, MP calls 4 to the flop

Flop comes down 

I check, CHris Checks, MP for watever reasoin bets £15, pell makes it £50.

What line do people take from here?

[DMorgan]

I like a 4bet pre to £119. Flatting just puts us in a really gross spot where we're effectively set mining 'cos its almost certainly gunna be multi way when you flat here and even when you get your all undercard flop you don't really know where you're at.

I fold the flop pretty quick as it plays out

For you to be good here pell needs to have 3bet light pre which I think he'd probably be less inclined to do once MP comes in and he's probably well aware that this guy isn't a fan of folding. When he makes it 50 on the flop I think we can assume that its because he wants MP to stay in the pot. Its just such a gross situation where if we raise and get called we still have little information and getting 4bet really blows.

[ChipRich]

i think the big question here is, 'where the fk is Music Tony and his bastard keyboard'?

[Cf]

Can't decide if I 4bet pre. If we 4bet and get 5bet then it's pretty horrible and I guess we have to fold. So 4betting is sort of bluffing. If I flat then I do so with the intention of set mining. I don't particulary like to do that with JJ but this might be a spot where it's appropriate. I fold the flop. Sure, we've got an overpair, but it can easily be crushed at this point, and if it is good then I don't think it's a massive favourite against whatever we might get it in against.

[hettonmobster]

with the villains involved are you sure pell is ever 3 betting light pre? to 3 bet against chris surely his range has you absolutely crushed and maybe flatting pre to setmine/folding pre is the best course. only my opinion because seen these two at tables together and they tend to stay out of each others way most of the tme.

[BulldozerD]

i might just fold pre tbh

[SuuPRlim]

Can't decide if I 4bet pre. If we 4bet and get 5bet then it's pretty horrible and I guess we have to fold. So 4betting is sort of bluffing.

Its not really bluffing If im ahead of his 3bet calling range but behind his 5betting range I could 4bet fold, but it  can be pretty exploitable

with the villains involved are you sure pell is ever 3 betting light pre? to 3 bet against chris surely his range has you absolutely crushed and maybe flatting pre to setmine/folding pre is the best course. only my opinion because seen these two at tables together and they tend to stay out of each others way most of the tme.

yeah this is true to a certian extent, but pell knows chris will open wide and MP is really loose passive so is capable of 3betting pretty wide for value mainly

I like a 4bet pre to £119. Flatting just puts us in a really gross spot where we're effectively set mining 'cos its almost certainly gunna be multi way when you flat here and even when you get your all undercard flop you don't really know where you're at.

I fold the flop pretty quick as it plays out

For you to be good here pell needs to have 3bet light pre which I think he'd probably be less inclined to do once MP comes in and he's probably well aware that this guy isn't a fan of folding. When he makes it 50 on the flop I think we can assume that its because he wants MP to stay in the pot. Its just such a gross situation where if we raise and get called we still have little information and getting 4bet really blows.

You're right, played so fkn terrible the entire session.

i think the big question here is, 'where the fk is Music Tony and his bastard keyboard'?

buying new keyboard on middyjones £ imo

[Patonius2000]

I'd 4b if it's a good spot to 4b call, otherwise flat. Flop is an easy fold unless you want to turn your hand in to a bluff.

[SuuPRlim]

I'd 4b if it's a good spot to 4b call, otherwise flat. Flop is an easy fold unless you want to turn your hand in to a bluff.

Im not sure if i can make Pell fold anything here, but the other problem is that MP always has a T and will defo call off another bet or two, so there is a lot of value here....sigh

[Patonius2000]

Yeah I mean I think turning your hand in to a bluff is pretty bad I just left it as an option to illustrate how much I hate overcalling flop. You get to showdown with better pretty much never vs anyone good and have massive reverse implied odds vs his range.

[SuuPRlim]

Yeah I mean I think turning your hand in to a bluff is pretty bad I just left it as an option to illustrate how much I hate overcalling flop. You get to showdown with better pretty much never vs anyone good and have massive reverse implied odds vs his range.

If we're sure that MP has a T (which trust me we are!) then how often roughly would pell have to have air to make a flop overcall profitable, or us raising in the knowledge that we beat 0% of pells value range but fold out all his air and get HU vs MP who's range we crush?

I Imagine we'd need peel to have air a much higher % than he does (im incapable of working the maths out) and we'd need to rely  virtually 100% on the MP calling flop 3b and turn shove? is this right or complete drival?

[Patonius2000]

Yeah I mean I think turning your hand in to a bluff is pretty bad I just left it as an option to illustrate how much I hate overcalling flop. You get to showdown with better pretty much never vs anyone good and have massive reverse implied odds vs his range.

If we're sure that MP has a T (which trust me we are!) then how often roughly would pell have to have air to make a flop overcall profitable, or us raising in the knowledge that we beat 0% of pells value range but fold out all his air and get HU vs MP who's range we crush?

I Imagine we'd need peel to have air a much higher % than he does (im incapable of working the maths out) and we'd need to rely  virtually 100% on the MP calling flop 3b and turn shove? is this right or complete drival?

Define air.

[SuuPRlim]

Yeah I mean I think turning your hand in to a bluff is pretty bad I just left it as an option to illustrate how much I hate overcalling flop. You get to showdown with better pretty much never vs anyone good and have massive reverse implied odds vs his range.

If we're sure that MP has a T (which trust me we are!) then how often roughly would pell have to have air to make a flop overcall profitable, or us raising in the knowledge that we beat 0% of pells value range but fold out all his air and get HU vs MP who's range we crush?

I Imagine we'd need pell to have air a much higher % than he does (im incapable of working the maths out) and we'd need to rely  virtually 100% on the MP calling flop 3b and turn shove? is this right or complete drival?

Define air.

lol gd point I guess I mean non premium hands that 3b pre and that have flopped enough equity to contiue vs MP but would fold to action behind from me and chris. also i imagine there is a % time that he folds QQ-AA and an another % time he has no hand at all and is just trying to iso the MP with a hand like AK/AQ/KQ knowing that MP most likely has a ten and he has 6outs+ should be able to win the hand on later streets. So i guess its AK/AQ/KQ/T9/78....

Yeah raising is tez from whatever angle we take on it lol

[Whollyflush]

4betting pre sucks, unless you have sum sick history whereby he 5bet jams often enough to make 6bet jamming 200bb deep profitable.

Call flop see a turn, action is likely to be fairly easy on the turn if it goes 3 way and everyone plays face up, could be good fun HU against BTN 3 bettor.

Important to consider if 3bettor will polarise (internet style) or just merge his 3betting range IP of the tip toppy of his range.

[Patonius2000]

4betting pre sucks, unless you have sum sick history whereby he 5bet jams often enough to make 6bet jamming 200bb deep profitable.

Agree

Call flop see a turn, action is likely to be fairly easy on the turn if it goes 3 way and everyone plays face up, could be good fun HU against BTN 3 bettor.

Important to consider if 3bettor will polarise (internet style) or just merge his 3betting range IP of the tip toppy of his range.

If you assume his 3b range is polarised this is actually going to be the opposite of fun.

  18,538,898  games     5.391 secs     3,438,860  games/sec

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    35.537%     34.88%    00.66%           6465598       122570.50   { JdJh }
Hand 1:    64.463%     63.80%    00.66%          11828159       122570.50   { JJ+, TdTh, ThTs, AdKd, AsKs, AdQd, Tc7c, Th7h, Ts7s, 97s+, 87s, 8c6c, 8h6h, 8s6s, 7c6c, 7h6h, 7s6s, 75s, 6c5c, 6h5h, 6s5s, AcKd, AcKh, AcKs, AdKh, AdKs, AhKs, 98o, 8c7h, 8c7s, 8h7c, 8h7s, 8s7c, 8s7h, 7c6h, 7c6s, 7h6c, 7h6s, 7s6c, 7s6h }

or just merge his 3betting range IP of the tip toppy of his range.

Idk what this means, could you explain?