DTD Ruling at request of Simon Trumper

[outragous76]

not sure why the hate

i left it open ended for very good reason (which is becoming partially clear in the thread to be frank)

we can always progress the discussion - i didnt want a right/or wrong ruling style question, and from the basis of my discussions with simon i dont think he did either

[gatso]

tbh I don't care. either rule that the hand progresses as normal or that the player cannot bet or raise. either is fine as long as it's consistently applied

[Boba Fett]

The ruling in all/most Glasgow and Edinburgh casinos were that the exposed hand was dead, no exceptions.  Havent seen it happen for a while so not sure if this is still the case.  Obv think this is a terrible ruling and that hand should be live but can only check/call/fold with a warning.  Repeated exposing of cards for a penalty or doing it in some sort of way to deliberately gain an advantage should get a penalty too imo.

In cash I think hand should be live with all options open.

[Cf]

I think dtd do hand is live but player can't make aggressive action. I think that's a silly rule. Hand is live obv but I don't see why the player shouldn't have all options open - he's betting with the disadvantage of the other players knowing what he has! Penalty after hand, accident or not, should be standard too.

[George2Loose]

rule at wsop is that action continues as normal with all options open to player- he just gets a round of the button penaly after the hand.

Personally I think if you expose your cards your hand should remain live- but you cannot make action

[dik9]

Am I allowed to answer this as I work as a supervisor at DTD?

http://ukpokerassociation.com/rules/dusk-till-dawn-rules/ DTD Rules
http://ukpokerassociation.com/rules/tda-poker-rules-latest/ TDA Rules  rule 42
http://ukpokerassociation.com/tournaments/ Roberts Rules - rule 22
http://ukpokerassociation.com/rules/ukipt-rules/ UKIPT rules Just states that a player cannot expose cards however at DTD the rules for the UKIPT (exposed hands) were the same as the DTD rules
http://ukpokerassociation.com/rules/gukpt-rules/ GUKPT rules you will notice a few strange rules at Grosvenors

http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/wsop.tournament-rules.08.pdf rule 50

This has been a standard rule for many years by the TDA (the rules that DTD go by), can't see why Simon would ask someone to post for advice when he has an account on blonde?

EDIT: Forgot to say, any live hands have all options open, anything other than this is a made up house rule. Hence the penalty comes after the hand.

[Yogi-Bear]

Can I answer as well.

PLEASE DIKKY9. LET ME LET ME.

Hand is live. All actions are available to the player. Penalty will be given at the end of the hand.

Not too difficult is it? Requires no thought process at all. Dead simple. Black and white.

Did i get it right Mr Richard???

Yogi

[outragous76]

Not sure why people keep querying the simon element of this. He did not ask for advice, he wanted it discussed.

Ok, so let's discuss.

The original consensus on here was hand live, no aggressive action. As pointed out by dtd floor person above, ruling issued was that hand is live, all options available. Thoughts?

[xxMAIRxx]

Happened at DTD during APAT ME Day 1 last weekend, was ruled by Simon that hand was live and all options available and he gave no penalty in this instance, thing is the guy who exposed his cards (55) continued to bet into the other player, who called all the way to the river hoping to hit and never did, therefore the pot was a nice size when he eventually folded having not hit to beat 55.

Personally when someone exposes their cards like that, yes allow them to remain live, but they have no options

[Sheriff Fatman]

Hand is live, the players an idiot, could well get a penalty after the hand but for the rest of the hand he just has to sit with his hand face up hating life and trying not to get levelled. normally he cant bet but he can cawl is the ruling no?

I think so

Hand is live, he can call but not make action or raise at any point is the ruling I would expect


DTD would give him an orbit penalty afterwards on the precedent of similar I saw last weekend, I think

I don't think a penalty would be appropriate here as he didn't expose his hand to gain an perceived advantage. He obviously thought that the action in the hand had finished.

It was simply a mistake as described whereas the penalty last week on my table (If that is the instance to which you are referring) was for a guy who deliberately exposed his hand before and while contemplating calling an allin.

Wasn't his hand ruled dead in this hand, Ralph, which is contrary to the rulings on this thread?

Different circumstances though.  The guy was a live game n00b and while contemplating ForthThistle's all in shove he flipped over his AQ and asked the rest of the table whether they would call!  

[doubleup]

not sure why the hate

i left it open ended for very good reason (which is becoming partially clear in the thread to be frank)

we can always progress the discussion - i didnt want a right/or wrong ruling style question, and from the basis of my discussions with simon i dont think he did either

Its hardly hate and you still haven't been clear what you are trying to achieve.

If you want opinions on what is the best ruling for exposed cards, and use the example provided, you will get opinions based on this example.  

If you were to provided an example of someone in a satellite and on the bubble, betting and then flipping their cards (to minimise variance) you would get another answer.  

[outragous76]

not sure why the hate

i left it open ended for very good reason (which is becoming partially clear in the thread to be frank)

we can always progress the discussion - i didnt want a right/or wrong ruling style question, and from the basis of my discussions with simon i dont think he did either

Its hardly hate and you still haven't been clear what you are trying to achieve.

If you want opinions on what is the best ruling for exposed cards, and use the example provided, you will get opinions based on this example.  

If you were to provided an example of someone in a satellite and on the bubble, betting and then flipping their cards (to minimise variance) you would get another answer.  

I am not trying to achieve anything - for once in my life i am trying to keep personal opinions off a thread a steer a debate!

pls read the contents of the thread they are self explanatory

[Laxie]

Not sure why people keep querying the simon element of this. He did not ask for advice, he wanted it discussed.

Ok, so let's discuss.

The original consensus on here was hand live, no aggressive action. As pointed out by dtd floor person above, ruling issued was that hand is live, all options available. Thoughts?

Suppose both options make sense in their own way.  

By not allowing the person to act but remain live in the hand, they are basically taking their penalty during that hand.  They've no way of boosting the pot when/if their hand improves.

That said, the argument that a hand can only be either live or dead makes sense too.  If it's live - the player should be permitted to act as usual.  Then given a penalty after the hand is over.

Every time I've ever been present during a similar situation, they've gone with the first option.  Hand live, but player cannot act.  But if I ever came across what appears to be the 'correct' ruling I'd be hard pressed to find a disagreement with the it. 

Glad you posted this.  At least next time I'm asked the question, I'll have the correct answer. 

[Cf]

Some debate as guy wanted. We all seem in agreement that the hand is live so...

For those of you who think the player should not be allowed to make an aggresive action: why?

[outragous76]

CF - just for clarification there was never any question hand was dead

but yes i would like debate over whether the player should be allowed to take aggresive action or not