The Best In The Business

[marcro]

ok tonight I'm happier, chopped the big162 with overwhelming chiplead for 15.5k when first was 17.9.

Continued with the no turbos approach today and wasn't tilted whole session, maybe these Amaya changes are gonna be good!

It is absolutely incredible how you keep churning out these wins, well done!

[tikay]

I think you would be surprised Tikay how badly some gaming firms are run and how little knowledge some very senior people in the industry actually have about the real numbers of the game.  There are a lot of people in a lot of senior positions in major gaming companies who are, quite frankly, clueless about the industry but have rode the wave of 'easy money' in the boom of online gaming for 10/12 years and have very impressive looking cv's as a result of it.  When, in reality, you could have let a monkey do a lot of their roles, and their companies success wouldn't have changed a great deal.  I doubt this would be your experience at Sky but, believe me, in numerous other major firms there is substantial, talentless very highly paid dead wood floating around making bad decisions everywhere of the back of these 'impressive' cvs they hold.  

You only have to look at how badly Ladbrokes are performing,  Blue sq sold for pocket change to betfair after being a huge market changer 15 years earlier.  Stan james up for sale currently and going the same route as Blue sq. Victor Chandler being sold because they can't adapt to modern day conditions.  Canbet gone busto owing customers fortunes.  The vast majority of these are down to out of date/out of touch senior members of staff operating at positions way above their talent level.

Add to this that some of these guys set bad KPI targets for their junior staff to follow which creates bad macro policy being used to meet these targets by staff for short term individual gain/bonuses/share options etc etc rather than the better good of the long term business as a whole.  Some of the senior decisions i have seen made first hand in several gaming firms would beggar belief to anyone who has a rational business brain. 

What do you think I do, empty bins all day?

I would not be surprised at all, I make it my business to read all the trade media & info about all of the Gaming Sites.

Remember, the Management & Shareholders of these companies have a different agenda to that which we, we, as punters & pokerers, have. Their obligation - OBLIGATION - is to maximise their earnings.

As poker players & punters, we have a different aganda - we want the lowest rake, best prices, da de da. Not unreasonably, either.

Those two agendas do not always align though. They want to maximise revenue, we want to play poker as cheaply as possible. Neither are necessarily wrong, or bad. 

blonde is, mainly, a poker & punting Forum, so we don't really get good balance here, do we? There are exceptions, people in the Industry, like Alun B & Barry Carter who sort of sit in a neutral corner, of course, but generally, the noise you will see here will be biased towards the players wishes. I'd prefer to see a more balanced view, personally, thats all. 

I don't think poker or Sports Betting Sites are, or should be, our enemy, for starters, or their staff, (Little Danny, say). That's illogical. DN is being mullered for defending his Employers actions. What do people EXPECT him to do?! He's paid a Milly per annum or whatever, what should he do, resign? Would YOU resign in his spot?

It's all really interesting, imo. But it has 2 sides, & I think it behoves us to try & see both sides, only be doing that can we understand each other better.

Charlie Munger - Warren Buffet's partner - famously does the obverse thing to better get the right answer - he looks at questions backwards.

And I say again - I don't think 'Stars are perfect. I do think they are still very good though.

A few years ago, Full Tilt introduced Multi Entry Tourneys, which was, generally, VERY well-received. A few days back Amaya mentioned that 'Stars might do them soon, too. A chorus of boos followed.

Incidentally, we are not FORCED to play on 'Stars. Most people want to though, & will continue to do so. They will. 

[George2Loose]

METs werent popular at all Tony.

[Doobs]

ok tonight I'm happier, chopped the big162 with overwhelming chiplead for 15.5k when first was 17.9.

Continued with the no turbos approach today and wasn't tilted whole session, maybe these Amaya changes are gonna be good!

Don't post that outside this thread, you'll get fookin lynched.

An outrageous thing for Plinop to say, Amaya are the work of the devil, does he not know they are responsible for all the ills of poker & the world generally, including climate change, the hole in the ozone layer, irrensponsible gambling, responsible grumbling, & the price of sliced bread? And they DESERVE that reputation, it was not made overnight, it took the best part of a fortnight (two whole weeks) to become poker's Pantomine Villain, BOO!

PS - Patrick, you'll not believe this, but you can test it yourself. I google imaged "Pantomine Villain, boo!" via chrome & this photo came up. 

Click to see full-size image.

I often take the unfashionable side on things, but you ever thought they deserve the criticism?  On the face of it, they seem to be taking some idiotic steps.  You said the other day that people will still turn up to get their fix like we are all like crack addicts and the only seller of crack is stars. 

 

They deserve some of it, yes, but they have not gone from the best site in the world to a heap of poo in a few weeks, that's just an over-reaction. Not as good as they were? Probably not. A dreadful site, deserving of all this short-term bile? I don't think so.

When you say they are taking "idiotic steps", do you, or any other poker player, REALLY think you know better than a multi-zillion dollar Corporation with huge experience of the Gaming Industry? We might not LIKE what they are doing, that's fair enough, but we have different objectives. We wanna play poker, they want - ARE OBLIGED - to try to make as much money as possible.

And yes, to many people, poker is incredibly addictive, though I would not liken it to crack. We LOVE to play the game. 

All this chuntering, but I bet 95% of the chunterers are still playing on 'Stars. AmIright?

On 2+2, one chap said "unless you sort it out 'Stars, I'm off to i-Poker". Err, I call.

I would add that I think 'Stars attitude to third party software is dreadful, & I'm happy to call them out on that, so it's not like I think they can do no wrong, I just think we need a bit more balance.

In my view, they remain an incredibly good site.

Arer there other sellers in the Market? Course there are, & players will look around. They won't find many Sunday Millys though.   

Disclaimer - I'm a grumpy sod first thing in the morning, & really should not Post until Midday.     

Well, yes.  You think I empty bins for my day job?

Lol, behave, I'm not suggesting you or any other poker player is not entitled to form these opinions. I just don't think you or they  know as much about the economics of running a Gaming Site, or have the detailed inside info & numbers, as Amaya does though, not in a million years, any more than the Execs at Amaya would have the faintest idea how an actuary goes about his work. Both are very very specialised skills.

It's like a football fan saying they know better than a Premier League Manager, such as Messrs Pardew or Wenger.

Oh, wait......

Surely gaming companies are just insurers with less complicated inputs?

Surely given Amaya haven't messed around with Stars before, they don't have much idea what will happen when they do?  

Guess they could ask somebody who builds mathematical models for a living?

Nah, no better than football fans us lot.  Haven't got the faintest idea how to do this maths shit, or run enormous financial behemoths many times the size of Amaya.

[tikay]

METs werent popular at all Tony.

Depends how you define "popular", but my point was they were, largely, well received when announced by Tilt, but when Stars mentioned them, not so much. I may be wrong, but I think thats largely because of the current "sentiment" (lol @ that word!) towards 'Stars. 

[DaveShoelace]

I think you would be surprised Tikay how badly some gaming firms are run and how little knowledge some very senior people in the industry actually have about the real numbers of the game.  There are a lot of people in a lot of senior positions in major gaming companies who are, quite frankly, clueless about the industry but have rode the wave of 'easy money' in the boom of online gaming for 10/12 years and have very impressive looking cv's as a result of it.  When, in reality, you could have let a monkey do a lot of their roles, and their companies success wouldn't have changed a great deal.  I doubt this would be your experience at Sky but, believe me, in numerous other major firms there is substantial, talentless very highly paid dead wood floating around making bad decisions everywhere of the back of these 'impressive' cvs they hold.  

You only have to look at how badly Ladbrokes are performing,  Blue sq sold for pocket change to betfair after being a huge market changer 15 years earlier.  Stan james up for sale currently and going the same route as Blue sq. Victor Chandler being sold because they can't adapt to modern day conditions.  Canbet gone busto owing customers fortunes.  The vast majority of these are down to out of date/out of touch senior members of staff operating at positions way above their talent level.

Add to this that some of these guys set bad KPI targets for their junior staff to follow which creates bad macro policy being used to meet these targets by staff for short term individual gain/bonuses/share options etc etc rather than the better good of the long term business as a whole.  Some of the senior decisions i have seen made first hand in several gaming firms would beggar belief to anyone who has a rational business brain. 

What do you think I do, empty bins all day?

I would not be surprised at all, I make it my business to read all the trade media & info about all of the Gaming Sites.

Remember, the Management & Shareholders of these companies have a different agenda to that which we, we, as punters & pokerers, have. Their obligation - OBLIGATION - is to maximise their earnings.

As poker players & punters, we have a different aganda - we want the lowest rake, best prices, da de da. Not unreasonably, either.

Those two agendas do not always align though. They want to maximise revenue, we want to play poker as cheaply as possible. Neither are necessarily wrong, or bad. 

blonde is, mainly, a poker & punting Forum, so we don't really get good balance here, do we? There are exceptions, people in the Industry, like Alun B & Barry Carter who sort of sit in a neutral corner, of course, but generally, the noise you will see here will be biased towards the players wishes. I'd prefer to see a more balanced view, personally, thats all. 

I don't think poker or Sports Betting Sites are, or should be, our enemy, for starters, or their staff, (Little Danny, say). That's illogical. DN is being mullered for defending his Employers actions. What do people EXPECT him to do?! He's paid a Milly per annum or whatever, what should he do, resign? Would YOU resign in his spot?

It's all really interesting, imo. But it has 2 sides, & I think it behoves us to try & see both sides, only be doing that can we understand each other better.

Charlie Munger - Warren Buffet's partner - famously does the obverse thing to better get the right answer - he looks at questions backwards.

And I say again - I don't think 'Stars are perfect. I do think they are still very good though.

A few years ago, Full Tilt introduced Multi Entry Tourneys, which was, generally, VERY well-received. A few days back Amaya mentioned that 'Stars might do them soon, too. A chorus of boos followed.

Incidentally, we are not FORCED to play on 'Stars. Most people want to though, & will continue to do so. They will. 

Ha, essentially just relegated me and the Hack to being the worst players on the forum, which we probably are.

Agree with every word though pops. I've actually remained pretty schtum on this debate (In part at my job because we don't want my opinion to seem like PokerStrategy's opinion which would seem like iPokers opinion, and so forth) because I'd probably piss everyone off. The people who are calling for DNs head have probably tilted me the most funnily enough, which has surprised me. Amazes me how quick people are to think someone should quit their job if their employer does something unfavourable, these people would not be able to hold down any job if they were acted how they think other people should act.  

At the same time, I have to be very cogniscant of the fact that the poker media is probably funded as much, if not more so, by serious grinders, so in that respect I should probably be one of the boo boys. It's a tricky one, but ultimately I think its been blown massively out of proportion by a vocal (and understandably pissed off) minority. IMO unless something major happens to online poker from a regulatory point of view, in six months time nothing will have changed, everyone is still at Stars and their traffic is the same or better.

[tikay]

ok tonight I'm happier, chopped the big162 with overwhelming chiplead for 15.5k when first was 17.9.

Continued with the no turbos approach today and wasn't tilted whole session, maybe these Amaya changes are gonna be good!

Don't post that outside this thread, you'll get fookin lynched.

An outrageous thing for Plinop to say, Amaya are the work of the devil, does he not know they are responsible for all the ills of poker & the world generally, including climate change, the hole in the ozone layer, irrensponsible gambling, responsible grumbling, & the price of sliced bread? And they DESERVE that reputation, it was not made overnight, it took the best part of a fortnight (two whole weeks) to become poker's Pantomine Villain, BOO!

PS - Patrick, you'll not believe this, but you can test it yourself. I google imaged "Pantomine Villain, boo!" via chrome & this photo came up. 

Click to see full-size image.

I often take the unfashionable side on things, but you ever thought they deserve the criticism?  On the face of it, they seem to be taking some idiotic steps.  You said the other day that people will still turn up to get their fix like we are all like crack addicts and the only seller of crack is stars. 

 

They deserve some of it, yes, but they have not gone from the best site in the world to a heap of poo in a few weeks, that's just an over-reaction. Not as good as they were? Probably not. A dreadful site, deserving of all this short-term bile? I don't think so.

When you say they are taking "idiotic steps", do you, or any other poker player, REALLY think you know better than a multi-zillion dollar Corporation with huge experience of the Gaming Industry? We might not LIKE what they are doing, that's fair enough, but we have different objectives. We wanna play poker, they want - ARE OBLIGED - to try to make as much money as possible.

And yes, to many people, poker is incredibly addictive, though I would not liken it to crack. We LOVE to play the game. 

All this chuntering, but I bet 95% of the chunterers are still playing on 'Stars. AmIright?

On 2+2, one chap said "unless you sort it out 'Stars, I'm off to i-Poker". Err, I call.

I would add that I think 'Stars attitude to third party software is dreadful, & I'm happy to call them out on that, so it's not like I think they can do no wrong, I just think we need a bit more balance.

In my view, they remain an incredibly good site.

Arer there other sellers in the Market? Course there are, & players will look around. They won't find many Sunday Millys though.   

Disclaimer - I'm a grumpy sod first thing in the morning, & really should not Post until Midday.     

Well, yes.  You think I empty bins for my day job?

Lol, behave, I'm not suggesting you or any other poker player is not entitled to form these opinions. I just don't think you or they  know as much about the economics of running a Gaming Site, or have the detailed inside info & numbers, as Amaya does though, not in a million years, any more than the Execs at Amaya would have the faintest idea how an actuary goes about his work. Both are very very specialised skills.

It's like a football fan saying they know better than a Premier League Manager, such as Messrs Pardew or Wenger.

Oh, wait......

Surely gaming companies are just insurers with less complicated inputs?
Surely given Amaya haven't messed around with Stars before, they don't have much idea what will happen when they do?  

Guess they could ask somebody who builds mathematical models for a living?

Nah, no better than football fans us lot.  Haven't got the faintest idea how to do this maths shit, or run enormous financial behemoths many times the size of Amaya.

Not sure I buy that. A poker site simply charges a fee for people to use it's services, it does not bear any risk as such, or need to calculate complex equations. Players don't play the site, they play each other. The Site just takes a fee ("margin"). 

We can't seriously think that Amaya purchased 'Stars with the intention of leaving things as they were? The idea was to find ways to increase earnings.

I'd back you to run complex mathematical equations against anyone I know. I'm not sure that equates to the skills needed to run a major Gaming site though, that is more about marketing & innovation.

[tikay]

ok tonight I'm happier, chopped the big162 with overwhelming chiplead for 15.5k when first was 17.9.

Continued with the no turbos approach today and wasn't tilted whole session, maybe these Amaya changes are gonna be good!

Amid all the noise, I forgot to say well done Patrick.

Honestly, in all the years I've been in, & observed poker, I don't recall seeing anyone dominate to this extent.

[George2Loose]

Agree Tony. I think that poker players have been somewhat naive and over the top. Primarily stars is there and has always been there to make money.

I think the previous owners picked your pocket nicely though with a please and a thank you whereas Amaya are taking a "your money or your life" approach and people don't like it.

In 6 months time no one will care and they'll still be grinding away on stars. Let's face it- poker players love to moan anyway so they're giving the players what they wanted in a roundabout way.

[tikay]

Agree Tony. I think that poker players have been somewhat naive and over the top. Primarily stars is there and has always been there to make money.

I think the previous owners picked your pocket nicely though with a please and a thank you whereas Amaya are taking a "your money or your life" approach and people don't like it.

In 6 months time no one will care and they'll still be grinding away on stars. Let's face it- poker players love to moan anyway so they're giving the players what they wanted in a roundabout way.

Grest post, especially that.

As someone said on blonde - might have been Crater? - looks like they are getting all the bad news out quickly, clearing the decks for smoother sailing ahead. 

[tikay]

clearing the decks for smoother sailing ahead

Time I did some work, when I come out with a mixed analogy as bad as that, lol.

I saw a GREAT one last week.

Something like "going downhill faster than a rat up a drainpipe".

Spent all night trying to imagine that one.

Yes yes, I'm easily amused. 

[George2Loose]

Agree Tony. I think that poker players have been somewhat naive and over the top. Primarily stars is there and has always been there to make money.

I think the previous owners picked your pocket nicely though with a please and a thank you whereas Amaya are taking a "your money or your life" approach and people don't like it.

In 6 months time no one will care and they'll still be grinding away on stars. Let's face it- poker players love to moan anyway so they're giving the players what they wanted in a roundabout way.

Grest post, especially that.

As someone said on blonde - might have been Crater? - looks like they are getting all the bad news out quickly, clearing the decks for smoother sailing ahead. 

Bubbled Moorman's book as well. Damn amaya

[DaveShoelace]

Agree Tony. I think that poker players have been somewhat naive and over the top. Primarily stars is there and has always been there to make money.

I think the previous owners picked your pocket nicely though with a please and a thank you whereas Amaya are taking a "your money or your life" approach and people don't like it.

In 6 months time no one will care and they'll still be grinding away on stars. Let's face it- poker players love to moan anyway so they're giving the players what they wanted in a roundabout way.

Grest post, especially that.

As someone said on blonde - might have been Crater? - looks like they are getting all the bad news out quickly, clearing the decks for smoother sailing ahead. 

Yeah that was me. It's worked too. As pissed off as everyone is, I haven't seen anyone complain about Battle of the Planets getting ditched. Why? Because all the other bad news is worse. To a smaller extent I'm seeing less people complain about the currency fees, because the rake is pissing everyone off.

To paraphrase a PR expert who got in hot water for saying it, "it's a good day to bury bad news". IMO now is a great time for rival poker rooms to sneakily announce all the shitty changes they have coming up, because nobody will care.

[tikay]

Agree Tony. I think that poker players have been somewhat naive and over the top. Primarily stars is there and has always been there to make money.

I think the previous owners picked your pocket nicely though with a please and a thank you whereas Amaya are taking a "your money or your life" approach and people don't like it.

In 6 months time no one will care and they'll still be grinding away on stars. Let's face it- poker players love to moan anyway so they're giving the players what they wanted in a roundabout way.

Grest post, especially that.

As someone said on blonde - might have been Crater? - looks like they are getting all the bad news out quickly, clearing the decks for smoother sailing ahead. 

Bubbled Moorman's book as well. Damn amaya

Ha!

I'm not sure why, but that reminded me of an oddity of sorts.

Like Crater, I have to be a bit careful what I say, as I am associated with another Site, but as you may know (& partly thanks to introductions to the Publisher from him), Next Door have been working with Chris Moorman on his new Book.

Anyway, Chris then played the opening UKOPS Event on Sunday, the High Roller, & won the thing, wp wp, it was perfect for us in so many ways. Remarkable timing, you can't make these things up. Marc Wright, after being Chippie with 11 left, cash bubbled.

Then another remarkable thing arose. Tuesday's UKOPS Main Event was won by Marc Wright - who then promptly done the double, & won it again last night for back to back UKOPS wins. Pretty impressive, these boys seem to be able to do it whatever the circumstances.

Quite what that has to do with anything I don't know, but it just struck me as quite remarkable. Watch yer back Plinop. 

[George2Loose]

Marc's poker skills has never been in doubt. If he had managed his off the table demons as well as Moorman it might've been his book out last week