Interesting hand with James Keys in the DTD £300 deepstack

[gatso]

I've seen a lot of good river calls recently with Q hi on A hi and K hi boards. not sure why, maybe people have started bluffing rivers a lot more making the call profitable

[SuuPRlim]

I am sure the flop c/r is where you loose this hand.

James has opened the hijack so we he can give you credit for knowing that he has a wide range of hands pre-flop, and most of them are going to c-bet. So you're range for such a small c/r has to be either 78, or a draw of some description, would you make such a small c/r with a set or two pair? most likely with a set or 2p u would c/r larger but id imagine you'd be more likely to c/call. With the small c/r you are repping such incredible strength that really the only hand strong enough is 78 or possibly 37 (but then u hardly ever peel from the BB with 37) I dont think 23 is strong enough to play like this on the flop and again you hardly ever have that hand. So it's reasonable for James to assume that either you have the 8straight, or are drawing to it.

Turn and river roll off J K, and if we stick to the assigned range on the flop he looses to a set (which you do 3 barrel, but hardly ever take this flop line with) a 2p hand (which I do not believe you would bet the river with if its a flopped 2p (and we dont think ur likely to c/r the flop with any 2p hand that involves a K or a J - or indeed peel from the BB with K6/J5 etc) he looses to J7 (again unlikely that you peel the BB, or bet the river) he looses to K7 (same again although u are more likely to bet the river with K7 than J7, but still more likely to c/call imo) he looses to A7 which is more likely from your turn/river line than K7/J7 esp. if it has spades, but I would imagine that his line in the hand is also congruent with a draw you are likely to check back A high a certain % of the time as well on the river.

So I can see why James thinks its 87 or nothing

The good old day of the 3barrel bluff might be fading away lol

[pleno1]

I am sure the flop c/r is where you loose this hand.

James has opened the hijack so we he can give you credit for knowing that he has a wide range of hands pre-flop, and most of them are going to c-bet. So you're range for such a small c/r has to be either 78, or a draw of some description, would you make such a small c/r with a set or two pair? most likely with a set or 2p u would c/r larger but id imagine you'd be more likely to c/call. With the small c/r you are repping such incredible strength that really the only hand strong enough is 78 or possibly 37 (but then u hardly ever peel from the BB with 37) I dont think 23 is strong enough to play like this on the flop and again you hardly ever have that hand. So it's reasonable for James to assume that either you have the 8straight, or are drawing to it.

Turn and river roll off J K, and if we stick to the assigned range on the flop he looses to a set (which you do 3 barrel, but hardly ever take this flop line with) a 2p hand (which I do not believe you would bet the river with if its a flopped 2p (and we dont think ur likely to c/r the flop with any 2p hand that involves a K or a J - or indeed peel from the BB with K6/J5 etc) he looses to J7 (again unlikely that you peel the BB, or bet the river) he looses to K7 (same again although u are more likely to bet the river with K7 than J7, but still more likely to c/call imo) he looses to A7 which is more likely from your turn/river line than K7/J7 esp. if it has spades, but I would imagine that his line in the hand is also congruent with a draw you are likely to check back A high a certain % of the time as well on the river.

So I can see why James thinks its 87 or nothing

The good old day of the 3barrel bluff might be fading away lol

yeah but sometimes/ most of the time nothing is better than q high.

[SuuPRlim]

I am sure the flop c/r is where you loose this hand.

James has opened the hijack so we he can give you credit for knowing that he has a wide range of hands pre-flop, and most of them are going to c-bet. So you're range for such a small c/r has to be either 78, or a draw of some description, would you make such a small c/r with a set or two pair? most likely with a set or 2p u would c/r larger but id imagine you'd be more likely to c/call. With the small c/r you are repping such incredible strength that really the only hand strong enough is 78 or possibly 37 (but then u hardly ever peel from the BB with 37) I dont think 23 is strong enough to play like this on the flop and again you hardly ever have that hand. So it's reasonable for James to assume that either you have the 8straight, or are drawing to it.

Turn and river roll off J K, and if we stick to the assigned range on the flop he looses to a set (which you do 3 barrel, but hardly ever take this flop line with) a 2p hand (which I do not believe you would bet the river with if its a flopped 2p (and we dont think ur likely to c/r the flop with any 2p hand that involves a K or a J - or indeed peel from the BB with K6/J5 etc) he looses to J7 (again unlikely that you peel the BB, or bet the river) he looses to K7 (same again although u are more likely to bet the river with K7 than J7, but still more likely to c/call imo) he looses to A7 which is more likely from your turn/river line than K7/J7 esp. if it has spades, but I would imagine that his line in the hand is also congruent with a draw you are likely to check back A high a certain % of the time as well on the river.

So I can see why James thinks its 87 or nothing

The good old day of the 3barrel bluff might be fading away lol

yeah but sometimes/ most of the time nothing is better than q high.

aha - trruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue dat, I think the formula is something like,

sicko + Q High = crushed soul

gg

[EvilPie]

Matt: cant understand why u think c/r bet is a weird line!? How often do you check raise a flop then check the turn unless you have just totally given up with the hand?
 

Weird was the wrong word. It isn't always weird and with certain hands makes perfect sense. Just doesn't make sense when repping a big hand.

I don't often c/r flops out of the blinds at all. Possibly if I've got some kind of draw and decide to semi bluff hoping for a lay down.

I don't think think I'd be doing it with a monster.

I'd be looking to get the maximum and against a regular late position raiser I'm looking to get him to bluff not to call me down with air.

[Mitch]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

[titaniumbean]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

Straddle when you have aces obv.

[EvilPie]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

This is my perception of most live players yes and I also don't expect to get value towned very often by them.

If I've raised the hi jack and someone such as Mr Keys or yourself has taken this line against me then I'd be very concerned but against most I'm expecting a big hand or a draw yes.

A big hand doesn't have to be the nuts obviously. 2 pair could take the same line on the flop but I'd still expect a check either turn or river hoping I was going to hang myself.

As for action killers, again most live players don't consider that. They protect hands against getting out drawn not against losing value.

[Mitch]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

This is my perception of most live players yes and I also don't expect to get value towned very often by them.

If I've raised the hi jack and someone such as Mr Keys or yourself has taken this line against me then I'd be very concerned but against most I'm expecting a big hand or a draw yes.

A big hand doesn't have to be the nuts obviously. 2 pair could take the same line on the flop but I'd still expect a check either turn or river hoping I was going to hang myself.

As for action killers, again most live players don't consider that. They protect hands against getting out drawn not against losing value.

OK, i take your point, maybe thinking on the wrong level for the general abilities of players in the DTD 300 

Therefore i will be donating 2moro.

U playing Matt?

[EvilPie]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

This is my perception of most live players yes and I also don't expect to get value towned very often by them.

If I've raised the hi jack and someone such as Mr Keys or yourself has taken this line against me then I'd be very concerned but against most I'm expecting a big hand or a draw yes.

A big hand doesn't have to be the nuts obviously. 2 pair could take the same line on the flop but I'd still expect a check either turn or river hoping I was going to hang myself.

As for action killers, again most live players don't consider that. They protect hands against getting out drawn not against losing value.

OK, i take your point, maybe thinking on the wrong level for the general abilities of players in the DTD 300 

Therefore i will be donating 2moro.

U playing Matt?

Not tomorrow mate. Decided to fold pre tournament and go out on an all dayer with Hopkin.

[Mitch]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

Straddle when you have aces obv.

Wasnt gonna tell u this story Andy, as it will make you cry, but as u have brought it up....

Stopped off at DTD on the way home from The Vic last night and played some comical capped £1/£2.

Managed to find aces on the only hand which had been straddled to £16. Got a 3 way all in for £1200.



Thankfully, to preserve my repuation, i only won the side pot ~£600. Unfortunatley, the might that is 85 off on the £8 straddle just couldnt get away for his remaining £175 pre. Standard.

[Mitch]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

This is my perception of most live players yes and I also don't expect to get value towned very often by them.

If I've raised the hi jack and someone such as Mr Keys or yourself has taken this line against me then I'd be very concerned but against most I'm expecting a big hand or a draw yes.

A big hand doesn't have to be the nuts obviously. 2 pair could take the same line on the flop but I'd still expect a check either turn or river hoping I was going to hang myself.

As for action killers, again most live players don't consider that. They protect hands against getting out drawn not against losing value.

OK, i take your point, maybe thinking on the wrong level for the general abilities of players in the DTD 300 

Therefore i will be donating 2moro.

U playing Matt?

Not tomorrow mate. Decided to fold pre tournament and go out on an all dayer with Hopkin.

NH

[titaniumbean]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

Straddle when you have aces obv.

Wasnt gonna tell u this story Andy, as it will make you cry, but as u have brought it up....

Stopped off at DTD on the way home from The Vic last night and played some comical capped £1/£2.
 
Managed to find aces on the only hand which had been straddled to £16. Got a 3 way all in for £1200.



Thankfully, to preserve my repuation, i only won the side pot ~£600. Unfortunatley, the might that is 85 off on the £8 straddle just couldnt get away for his remaining £175 pre. Standard.

im going to go and kill myself   

[outragous76]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

mitch, i think the point being made by the "nuts or air crew" is that hands that might raise the flop such as 2pr, and top pair with o/e check for showdown on the end when they mostly miss

[Mitch]

I just dont get how people are supposedly only raising the nuts vs an aggro thinking opponent on this board.

I think its pretty flawed thinking to just expect to check the nuts and expect people to just bluff off every street for you, sometimes you have to induce your own action.

With lots of legitimate hands that you want to get value from (not the hand in this situation obv) there are going to be a bunch of action killers on the turn that will make the betting slow down when the original raiser actually does have a decent hand, which some people seem to forget they are allowed to have sometimes, even if they are opening the hijack.

If your perception of people raising in this situation is nuts or draws only then its so easy to get value towned surely!?

mitch, i think the point being made by the "nuts or air crew" is that hands that might raise the flop such as 2pr, and top pair with o/e check for showdown on the end when they mostly miss

Yeah, i get what your saying, but personally, if i have any of the hands i check raise the flop with that i am continuing, im going to bet the river because either;

a) I have a hand that i want to get value from because the river is going to go check check unless he missed a draw and you want to bluff catch (if that is your read of your opponents hand)

b) You have a hand that cant often win at showdown due to the way the action has gone on previous streets.

c) He might be a hero