Prose from a Poshboy

[iangascoigne]

Cannot think of any millionaire whale fish who would want to play 1/2 in Nottingham.Thought long and hard and cannot think of any.

[SuuPRlim]

Poker's a game, which is fun.

People over analyse and complicate everything. This whole thing is actually pretty simple but it's not stuff to be discussed in public, imo.

[SuuPRlim]

Cannot think of any millionaire whale fish who would want to play 1/2 in Nottingham.Thought long and hard and cannot think of any.

Thin, Ian. So thin.

[Dubai]

Yeah i couldnt work out if id walked into one there.

Thing is even if ur a dog in the games- you will never be as big a whale as you think you are, given a) youre obviously intelligent and b) youre posting on a poker forum.

The latter is a pretty big thing

Cant imagine many of the London whales posting on here

[philthepower]

great post by phil too, are you talking about DC @ dtd or include the Gala DC games that used to run ?

Both Simon, in fact, I think every DC game i've played in be it Derby, Nottingham, Sheffield or Leeds has the same quirky D.N.A.

[philthepower]

As a 12 year veteran of the Dealer's Choice games, (I take Zolof to treat my post-traumatic stress disorder), who has transferred to the hold-em cash games upon the death of DC, I thought I would post about my differing experiences of the two.

 The DC game was nearly always 5/5 and it played big, certain players would sit with a couple of bags, others £200, but it was quite conceivable to spin that £200 to £3000 on any given night. Like the hold em cash games now it was accused of being too cliquey, full of regs (which when you're playing very specialist games it would be by it's very nature) all chasing the same easy marks, but when I compare the two now I come to a few conclusions:

(a) ETIQUETTE. The general etiquette on the DC table was terrible. This is not an indictment of everyone who used to play it, they were some proper gents in that game (after all, I used to play) but the simmering feuds and petty arguments that punctuated most nights, would have shamed a Sicilian village. This extended to the newbies to DC, who god forbid, would have the temerity to win a hand, to be congratulated with a " What the f*** did you think I had you f***ing moron! I can't play against idiots, you realise you only had 3 f***ing outs! " This would then extend to:

(b) DEALER ABUSE. Once the wronged party had exhausted all avenues of blame, (apart from themselves of course), they would then vent their fury at the dealer, after all it was THEY that had shuffled, cut and meted out this terrible injustice. It was now only just that they should suffer a foul mouthed tirade of abuse. I have seen dealer's in tears, profoundly embarassed and seething inside and this baptism of fire had obviously become notorious, because rookie dealers would come to the table shaking like a leaf, looking like they'd rather be dealing a 50/1 at Gala and wishing they had a Kevlar waistcoat.

(c) CHEATING/COLLUSION. When I first started playing cheating was rife, from stacked decks to palmed cards (yes, it doesn't just happen in the westerns) Player A would raise to 50, I'd call light (somethings never change), Player B makes it 250, Player A re-pops to 650 and they'd chop it up in the car park.

All of this would make for a terrible game you might think and would explain why it died, but I can promise you that for 10 years it was a very good game and had lots of newbies, heavily bankrolled. Why? Well, it was fast, there was no 5 minute dwelling on the river. If you lost it was quick and if you won it was big, it was not a slow drip-drip of methadone but an intravenous shot of morphine. New players would in part be attracted to the hostile atmosphere, stepping into the lion's den so as to "beat the bastards"

How do the above points apply to the hold 'em game?:

(a) ETIQUETTE. I've never heard anyone scream or angrily berate an opponent for bad play. Even when I've seen them dirted on the river for a big pot the most you'll get out of Mitch/Giblin/P.J./Sean/Stato is <SIGH>
I know Alex had his critics in the early days for his temperament but he's always been controlled since I've been back.
Which leads to point:

(b) DEALER ABUSE. Never seen it, possibly because some of them are ex-dealers but also because of their personailities-it's not in their nature.

(c) CHEATING/COLLUDING. I've heard it a few times "They chop it up in the car park" but trust me, from my early days at DC I know when people are colluding. These guys play as hard against each other as anyone else and you don't have to be a body language expert to know that when Alex rang Kings into P.J's Aces last week he wasn't getting any of it back in the car park.

When I returned to hold em a year ago, I did so knowing that I was rusty, I'd played Superstud, Hi-lo, Irish and Padooki (God Bless You Padooki) every weekend for 10 years; it was going to take time. The notion though that someone like Mitch would not 3/4/5 bet me in a spot that he would 95% of the time normally because he felt the need to soft-play me,fills me with horror. The only way to improve, the only way I honed my DC game is to play better players and it's no good if they're not playing their best game.

When I play Table Tennis at my club, I'll practise against players leagues above and I don't care if they smash me into oblivion, it's the only way I'll get better. This point was best illustrated when I played a guy 2 leagues below me (blatant brag that there are 2 leagues below me), he was playing really well and got 5 points ahead, but then he turned to me with a look of concern on his face and said "You're not taking it easy on me are you-some of the guys I've played in the higher leagues soft-played me and I HATE IT!"

In summary, I don't think it's fair to blame the regs for the shortage of newcomers to the 1/2 game. There's a recession on and that killed the DC, like Rob said there aren't many 1/2 or higher games outside of London. It's true people do find the 1/2 intimidating, but if the truth be told they're intimidated by the standard of the game. I've played all over the world and I don't think i've encountered a tougher 1/2 anywhere in terms of the level of play. Aside from this, I don't see why anyone should sit down with trepidation, there's no cheating, no colluding, no screaming, no criticism of bad play, no foul words spat in your face and no threats of violence.

If the truth be told though, I'd happily trade it all in for one last 4 Padooki morphine shot.

Most unlikely table tennis player ever? Had you more down as a subbuteo man

Subbuteo allows to me to act out my crushed poker dreams: individuals looking like pygmies by my giant hands, completely under my control, being pushed around the felt.

[MANTIS01]

Wow some terrific quality posts over the last few pages. I said honeybadgers made shrewd poker players.

Must confess I don't understand the term trolling. I thought the JamesBee post was well written and interesting. Just sounded like an experienced player who gave his perceptions of the DTD cash games. If you're a reg in those games trying to attract players just like him I would say his thoughts have value. It doesn't matter if his perception doesn't turn out to be fact, it's his perception that should be of interest because that is possibly what keeps people away.

JamesBee comes onto Blonde and gets involved. Group of regs huddle up. Now he doesn't want to post anymore. The forum is prob indicative of the attitude honeybadger illustrates regarding cash games. As far as I can read the guy is saying to young people they should learn from their elders and that his perception of the big game is it's quite cliquey. I don't know why that is called trolling.

[George2Loose]

Why call out people irl hiding behind a sn? Just say who u are- not commenting on what he said.

[jgcblack]

Poker's a game, which is fun.

People over analyse and complicate everything. This whole thing is actually pretty simple but it's not stuff to be discussed in public, imo.

Someone rather young.. who's been doing 'chunks' recently told me last night something pretty simple and wise.

"hold the good cards, and fold the bad cards."

[MANTIS01]

Why call out people irl hiding behind a sn? Just say who u are- not commenting on what he said.

Yo, what does it matter? Think the dude said one of the regs hollywoods a bit. No real need to call him out over such a crime. Anyway I'm no sherlock but reckon his name is James.

[jgcblack]

Agree with it all except the not having a 3bet range which is pretty silly and a bad idea. Great post otherwise.

Last year in gib I was up around 100bis in a pretty short time, I came a little deluded and would always take pics on my phone of big stack, I'd often go all in ott for 1k with 400 in the pot of deep vs a Spanish guy with a capped range. I'd 3bet most opens and just really made the game boring for everybody else. People made ridic folds vs me like qq pre and I'd be like 'what are you serious?' etc

The game generally died a little bit because of my ego at the time and now it's a very small 50/50 game and if I ever go to play its because im there to gamble on a Friday night and there are a lot of groans if I come to the table. Have learned from that of course.

In Newcastle a few months ago I was playing in a 20r. I had about 6rebuys and was trying to get a stack, the local regs were being wayyyyyyy ool. Shouting to their friends on other tables 'we've got a huge fish here' and after hands would shout full HHS across the room. If I was a recreational guy who was there to punt I'd 99% never play live poker again.

You make some good points there, especially as to the deluded thing, & photos of towering stacks. 

all young players take photos of their stacks and use em as profile pics on social media. Even seen people posting pics of the blue 100k chip at Dtd. It's just what they do. No harm in it intended

Pretty sad tho!

Is it wrong that one of my favorite photo's on my phone is of
4x 100k blue chips
4x 25k peach chips
4x 5k purple chips

all lined up next to each other in 3x4 format to 'show' a chunk of my stack in my last DS?

Like I said on another thread yesterday, I like chips... and yer I've take photos' of them in the past when I've gotten a lot...
its like saying "look mum/bro/guys, i found them all...."

[rfgqqabc]

Why call out people irl hiding behind a sn? Just say who u are- not commenting on what he said.

What does he need to do? Post a picture of himself? How does his real name make a difference? His name is James?

Whilst I disagree with his ten year comment, his perceptions have value, whether accurate or not its how someone who has played in the game feels. I really don't see what would cause offense. I take my time for the most part, I wouldn't be offended if someone pointed this out. The Hollywood comments are hardly offensive.

[jgcblack]

Wow some terrific quality posts over the last few pages. I said honeybadgers made shrewd poker players.

Must confess I don't understand the term trolling. I thought the JamesBee post was well written and interesting. Just sounded like an experienced player who gave his perceptions of the DTD cash games. If you're a reg in those games trying to attract players just like him I would say his thoughts have value. It doesn't matter if his perception doesn't turn out to be fact, it's his perception that should be of interest because that is possibly what keeps people away.

JamesBee comes onto Blonde and gets involved. Group of regs huddle up. Now he doesn't want to post anymore. The forum is prob indicative of the attitude honeybadger illustrates regarding cash games. As far as I can read the guy is saying to young people they should learn from their elders and that his perception of the big game is it's quite cliquey. I don't know why that is called trolling.

Why call out people irl hiding behind a sn? Just say who u are- not commenting on what he said.

Yo, what does it matter? Think the dude said one of the regs hollywoods a bit. No real need to call him out over such a crime. Anyway I'm no sherlock but reckon his name is James.

Going to put my head on the block here as well..

I don't read jamesbee's posts the same way you boys seem to be.  I agree that I read them like Mantis does above... but I am aware than he could just be up to his Mantics again.

PJ I haven't played with you recently but I would agree you're very professional, as well as a poker playing pain in my arse... but he's just saying that he thought you guys are very cliquey (i read that to mean openly comfortable) in DTD.  Which you are..

Of course you are, you go there x times/ week (I know its reducing) and you know everyone there, they know you... of course your 'comfortable'.

To people that haven't been there much/ at all it will look 'cliquey'... kinda go together.



Re-read his post PJ, it just mentions that some now 'well known' and some still relatively 'unknown' pros have been GIQ for a LONG time... and continue to do so.
This is something I'm really going to keep working on in my own game.
And mate, so what that he thinks you 'hollywood' a bit? You're thinking about all that strategy you're not talking about while at the table.  There's a helluva lot to think about in any one hand, even more so if you know the guy - esp when 100000000bb's deep.


@TeamDTD - don't get angry/ upset or have a go at this 'troll'.... double check his posts (i clicked on his sn so i could just look at only his posts) and then try to read them with two or three different 'heads' on (if you get me?).
You guys are saying that your games are dying... so you need to do something about it.
I remember Pleno and Alex having a discussion on here a month or so ago about live vs online, and although a lot of us enjoy live more... there are simply 'hundreds' of games online all the time.... you might just have to share the live ones a bit more???


But that's just my and here comes the backlash...

[jgcblack]

also - can we put the last 6-10 pages on BOB about 'live cash games'

There have been a lot of very useful/ insightful and important points made.

[Woodsey]

I want to post my thoughts on the issue of the struggling games at DTD. I realise that what I am going to say will sound very critical, and so I have thought long and hard about posting this - especially considering I really like and respect the people I am criticising. I hope my comments will be taken in the way they are intended. I also hope that you guys 'get' what I am saying, and don't misunderstand it/understand it only at a surface level. Please 'read between the lines' a little - a lot of this stuff is really hard to put into words and is about very abstract attitudinal concepts, and I know I have not explained what I want to say as eloquently as I would have liked to. So please try to realise what I am actually saying, rather than simply taking my words at face-value.

My contention is that the reason the DTD games are struggling is that the regs have not fully grasped what it means to be a professional poker player. They are too fixated on relatively unimportant stuff  like playing their hands well, when instead they should be worrying about far more important things - like running their game properly, acting correctly, and keeping their customers happy.

For example, one issue is that the regs (i.e. you guys) choose to make it a 3bet/4bet/5bet game. This means the recreational players can't see flops cheaply. They still call anyway, then check-fold when they miss. Great... you have won more money from them in the short term. But eventually they get sick of it, feel uncomfortable, lose too fast, and stop playing. A customer who might lose 50k to you guys over the space of a couple of years - and really enjoy doing so - quits playing in the game after losing 5k in a few sessions, because he feels he is out of his depth and out of his comfort zone, and is not enjoying himself enough.

I never ever understand it when, say, reg1 isolates a recreational player's limp and then reg2 3bets him. Why would you even have a 3betting range in this spot? JUST FLAT! Let the recreational player(s) into the pot, and play lots of multiway pots with them. Let the customers see some flops cheaply! And realise that the EV they lose will be shared out between you in the long run (you don't need to fight for it). Regs being too greedy to compete for the recreational money (and trying to win money from each other) ends up with them winning less money in the long run. Really good players should rarely 3bet each other if they want to nurture and sustain the games in the long-term. (I have obviously over-stated my case here BTW, and of course I don't really believe you should never 3bet... but you should understand the overall point that I am making)

Obviously if reg1 is isolating too much then the other regs might feel obliged to step in and prevent this by re-isolating him, to 'put him in his place' and prevent him taking more than his fair share of the pie. But in an ideal world all the regs would 'implicitly cooperate' to take their share of the pie without trying for more than their fair share. Instead of worrying about their 3betting ranges they should spend their energy on creating an environment conducive for the recreational players to enjoy themselves. This creates the best possible situation for the regulars to win money, and it also creates the best possible environment for the weaker players to have a great time in the game. So you get the best of both worlds... you win more money and you give 'value' to the recreational players.

A professional poker player is, first and foremost, in the entertainment business. His job is to give his opponents a great time in the game. Or at least to help sustain an environment in which the recreational player feels comfortable and will enjoy himself. If all the regs do this then the money will flow to them naturally. But it requires all regs to 'follow the script' - because if one of them decides to take too many liberties/be too greedy then it almost forces every other reg to do the same. And the result is that the games are worse for everyone, regs and recreational players alike. The regs end up making less money in the long run (despite trying to make more money in the short term) and the weak players don't have as good a time. All the energy that DTD regs spend trying to outlevel and outplay each other would be much better served thinking about how they can act in a manner that nurtures the game.

Let's imagine a recreational player sits in your game and his EV is to lose, say, £500 over the session. 90% of your energy should be spent focussing on trying to make sure he gets VALUE for that £500. The other 10% of your energy you are allowed to spend thinking about more trivial stuff. Like playing your cards well. Giving him value might require one of you to leave the table in order to ensure a healthy balance in the game and give him a punchers chance. It might require all of you to stop 3betting so much. It might require you to start limping sometimes. It might require you to play a bit gentler in pots with him. It might require you to talk about different things at the table. It might require any number of other actions on your part. Or it might require the opposite of these things - every customer has his own preferences. The only important thing is that this guy should get his money's worth from playing with you. And if he is not doing so for any reason at all... it is YOUR fault, you are not doing your job properly. This person has left his place of abode, got in his car, and driven all the way to DTD to his lose money to you. You want him to choose to do so again. So give him the experience that he wants... he is paying you for it.

A while back I played at DTD in a 2/5 game and two of you guys were having a conversation at the table about ICM-based optimal shoving ranges. This is not a good thing. There were two weak spots at the table, and several of you were exchanging 'subtle' knowing looks between yourselves after these weak players showed down hands that they had played terribly. I clocked these glances and it made me cringe inside. Even if the weak players did not see anything (one of them definitely did notice BTW), it demonstrated that you guys do not truly 'get' poker. Start showing the recreational players more respect, and focus more of your energy on providing these guys with what they want. They are your customers, and most of your focus should be on giving them a game that they want to play in. Then everyone wins. And you will have a healthy, vibrant game for years to come.

Clearly everyone agrees that the games at DTD are massively struggling. Yes there is a cyclical effect, and yes the recession isn't helping. However, these things are not the real reason. The real reason is simply this: Many recreational players just do not want to play with you guys. This is 100% the fault of the regulars in the game, and it is up to you to do something about this. Stop thinking about little changes that could be made by DTD to improve things - these changes will scratch the surface at best. The only thing that will ensure the games survive and thrive is if you all start thinking properly about what it really means to be a professional poker player. [Hint: Playing your cards well, whilst obviously necessary, is WAY down the list of important skills and attributes]

And you can respond by saying: "Hold on, we have loads of banter at the table, are friendly, give lots of sick action, and have fun... surely the recreational players will enjoy this!" Well very obviously they do not enjoy the particular environment and atmosphere that you have created, even if you think they 'should'. And this is your fault and your problem, not theirs. You need to think really hard about this. It is your JOB to make the game appealing to your customers. If you are not doing this then you are simply bad at your job.

Stu you are the ultimate nit, I can't believe you wrote all of this just so you could get to see some cheap flops v these guys