[12/03/2011 01:43:42] David Nicholson: do you think in an overall perspective for your range, if you dont jam here you cant jam hands like TT?
[12/03/2011 01:44:31] mathew frankland: nah not at all
[12/03/2011 01:44:40] mathew frankland: since alot of pads check calling range on the river
[12/03/2011 01:44:44] mathew frankland: is going to be 8x and 9x's
[12/03/2011 01:44:54] David Nicholson: wat about K8
[12/03/2011 01:44:54] mathew frankland: which 86 does bad against
[12/03/2011 01:45:00] mathew frankland: i think k8 is closer
[12/03/2011 01:45:11] mathew frankland: more boarderline
[12/03/2011 01:45:24] mathew frankland: ye i think my cut off might bhe A8 acctully
[12/03/2011 01:46:00] mathew frankland: i think our river range shud be something like
[12/03/2011 01:46:08] mathew frankland: A8+, bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:46:11] David Nicholson: like if he jams strong premium and air - if he has sufficient air in his range, hands ilke Q8 and T9 can call and auto profit
[12/03/2011 01:47:29] David Nicholson: if he is jamming K8+ hands like A8 and T9 can't call inexploitabley
[12/03/2011 01:47:45] mathew frankland: the objective of our "balanced range" is that we're doing better against his calling/money we pick up from him folding incorectly with each hand
[12/03/2011 01:47:59] mathew frankland: and i dont think were going to be doing this with a hand as low as 86
[12/03/2011 01:48:18] mathew frankland: ye ^^ is true in some situations but i dont think its going to be the case in this spot
[12/03/2011 01:48:24] David Nicholson: yeah
[12/03/2011 01:48:27] mathew frankland: since were calling $124 into $275
[12/03/2011 01:48:40] mathew frankland: which meens we need to be 31%
[12/03/2011 01:48:56] David Nicholson: yh I spose pretty easy call for any 9x rele
[12/03/2011 01:49:12] mathew frankland: which meens that for A8 to be a bad call he needs to have "it" 2 times as much as he has bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:49:21] mathew frankland: and on this board hes going to have a fair few bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:49:29] mathew frankland: therefore i think 86 is way too low on the spectrum
[12/03/2011 01:50:16] David Nicholson: arrrrr I see cos I was thinking, he may as well have this hand in his bluffing range with missed stuff, as he does terribley against any value range that checks
[12/03/2011 01:50:23] mathew frankland: infact acctully he mite not have that many bluffs...
[12/03/2011 01:50:25] mathew frankland: cos i cant think of a spade draw that doesnt get it in on the flop
[12/03/2011 01:50:26] David Nicholson: yh
[12/03/2011 01:50:35] David Nicholson: so you;'re saying the best strategy here
[12/03/2011 01:50:48] David Nicholson: would be to Vbet wider, and bluff much less
[12/03/2011 01:50:49] mathew frankland: so maybe A8 is a bad call
[12/03/2011 01:51:01] mathew frankland: doesnt meen i'm a fan of the shove either tho
[12/03/2011 01:51:10] mathew frankland: cos i dont think hes folding out anywhere near enough of the check calling range
[12/03/2011 01:51:21] David Nicholson: and he rarely has the best hand when chked to
[12/03/2011 01:51:42] mathew frankland: i think its way too strong of a hand to turn into a bluff
[12/03/2011 01:51:48] David Nicholson: so really, he shouldn;t jam anywhere near 100% of his air - if he has much
[12/03/2011 01:51:50] mathew frankland: and far to weak to be going for value
[12/03/2011 01:52:24] mathew frankland: for instance we shud be having maybe top 45% check back 40% and jam bottom 15
[12/03/2011 01:52:42] mathew frankland: i think he probably should jam alot of his air looking at this again
[12/03/2011 01:52:48] mathew frankland: cos i can hardly see a hand that is air tbh
[12/03/2011 01:54:02] David Nicholson: but when the guy chks the river, he caps his range pretty much to mid value(bluff catchers) and air that has given up
[12/03/2011 01:54:21] mathew frankland: ye true, but all his mid value bluff catchers beat us
[12/03/2011 01:54:43] David Nicholson: and like you say if he needs to be vbetting 2:1 on his bluffs
[12/03/2011 01:55:08] David Nicholson: he needs to be getting spades in OTF and chking back when he gets there with airballs reasonable chunk of the time to make K8 a bad call?
[12/03/2011 01:55:22] mathew frankland: what air does he have?
[12/03/2011 01:55:40] mathew frankland: im struggling to find 1 air hand now looking at it
[12/03/2011 01:55:45] David Nicholson: yh
[12/03/2011 01:57:39] David Nicholson: so if he can jam most of his air because he has some few airballs, then wats the difference between this hand and missed spades when 86 plays so terribley against any legit value hand?
[12/03/2011 01:58:30] mathew frankland: the price were laying the guy
[12/03/2011 01:58:47] David Nicholson: yh
[12/03/2011 01:58:48] mathew frankland: ur basically calling 86 our air
[12/03/2011 01:58:57] David Nicholson: so if we have this in or bluffing range
[12/03/2011 01:58:59] mathew frankland: but were just never getting him off a 9
[12/03/2011 01:59:11] mathew frankland: and hes prolly hardly ever folding an 8
[12/03/2011 01:59:18] mathew frankland: were just not going to make him fold enough
[12/03/2011 01:59:19] David Nicholson: so by that logic if we're facing such a wide c/c range we need to be bluffing actually never + let the c/caller make bad calls
[12/03/2011 01:59:55] mathew frankland: o god i dont know
[12/03/2011 02:00:02] David Nicholson: intersting this 2card malarky
[12/03/2011 02:00:07] mathew frankland: i think its a bad shove cos hes prolly not guna fold things like
[12/03/2011 02:00:16] mathew frankland: but i'm not saying good
are a good call
[12/03/2011 02:00:16] David Nicholson: yh agreed
[12/03/2011 02:00:29] mathew frankland: with what we've worked out good
are probably a bad call
[12/03/2011 02:00:32] mathew frankland: unless!
[12/03/2011 02:00:39] mathew frankland: you factor back in turning weak
into a bluff
[12/03/2011 02:00:40] David Nicholson: if he's jamming 86o
[12/03/2011 02:00:54] David Nicholson: lol
[12/03/2011 02:00:55] mathew frankland: but we could keep going round in circles with theory like that forever
[12/03/2011 02:00:59] mathew frankland: fact of the matter is
[12/03/2011 02:01:00] David Nicholson: we just shouldn't jam this river ever but value till the oppo adjusts by folding out the bottom of his c/c value range
[12/03/2011 02:01:04] mathew frankland: yh were not folding out enough to jam 86
[12/03/2011 02:01:15] mathew frankland: therefore its a bad shove regardless of if the guys call is bad or not
[12/03/2011 02:01:27] David Nicholson: and he sholdnt be jamming enough to make A8 a good call
[12/03/2011 02:01:32] mathew frankland: the guys call is what it is we should try to define our range to play profitably against the guy infront of us
[12/03/2011 02:01:35] mathew frankland: ye
[12/03/2011 02:02:32] David Nicholson: so, basically, if he isnt jamming 86o A8 is a bad call, and he shouldnt ever jam 86o because it makes it a call for A8
[12/03/2011 02:02:44] David Nicholson: so no1 should be jamming or calling lol
[12/03/2011 02:03:06] mathew frankland: no one shud be doing anything dave!
[12/03/2011 02:03:11] David Nicholson: just chk boys
[12/03/2011 02:03:17] David Nicholson: the middle btn its fine
[12/03/2011 02:03:18] mathew frankland: lol
[12/03/2011 02:03:36] mathew frankland: well
[12/03/2011 02:03:46] mathew frankland: what shud we do on the turn
[12/03/2011 02:03:52] mathew frankland: if were turning 8x into a bluff on the river
[12/03/2011 02:04:11] mathew frankland: because were now calling with a hand
[12/03/2011 02:04:24] mathew frankland: that we dont think is ahead of his value range
[12/03/2011 02:04:31] mathew frankland: so therefore depending on his drawing range
[12/03/2011 02:04:40] mathew frankland: shouldnt we be shoving the turn or folding it
[12/03/2011 02:04:48] mathew frankland: never mind his value range anyway, his checking the river range
[12/03/2011 02:04:56] mathew frankland: which isnt even up there in his value range!!
[12/03/2011 02:05:17] mathew frankland: regardless tho
[12/03/2011 02:05:26] mathew frankland: i've apsolutly millioned my timebank by now
Author