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Author Topic: Too much analysis?  (Read 1896 times)
Junior Senior
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« on: July 24, 2011, 10:52:22 PM »

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/19725/

Someone else posted this link on another thread.  I have watched it and the guy talks about the math (american) of why he did this and what reason the other guy did this yada yada yada.  If this kind of analysis is possible in the 4 seconds he is making the decisions in then i fucking give up as i am clearly playing against rainman.  the guy has had 6 months to put together analysis and a powerpoint presentation on 2 hands and trying to claim his thought process during the hand was possible to this level.  he's full of shit right?

thoughts?
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muckthenuts
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« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2011, 11:02:47 PM »

He definitely isn't doing all that combo counting etc. in real time so don't worry about that. Jose analyses tons of his hands like this, so with practice and repetition he's able to make really good approximations which he's proving in the vid.
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2011, 11:05:12 PM »

**Iv not watched the video** but i cant gather from your OP that we're talking a huge amount of detail.

IMO pretty much every poker hand is solvable, some won't take long to tackle and some will take hours and hours of crunching numbers/ranges etc, with the in depth analysis like in this vid then ofc you're right there is no way that anyone's internal monologue can in anyway resemble this detailed analysis, I sometimes spend hours and hours look at individual hands and talking things through with people for ages ages because whereas no human is physically capable of replicating it in game the knowledge you gain from indulging in this level of analysis often leads to much better, quicker decision making in the future.
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Patonius2000
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« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2011, 12:50:28 AM »

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/19725/

Someone else posted this link on another thread.  I have watched it and the guy talks about the math (american) of why he did this and what reason the other guy did this yada yada yada.  If this kind of analysis is possible in the 4 seconds he is making the decisions in then i fucking give up as i am clearly playing against rainman.  the guy has had 6 months to put together analysis and a powerpoint presentation on 2 hands and trying to claim his thought process during the hand was possible to this level.  he's full of shit right?

thoughts?

Wrong.

The best way I can think of explaining this is by using an example. In Jared Tendler's "The Mental Game of Poker" he talks about 4 levels of competence that can be broadly used to generalise development in any discipline/skill/game etc/. These are:

Unconscious Incompetence - You don't know what you don't know, complete beginner.
Conscious Incompetence - You've become conscious of what you don't know, you begin to understand where and how you need to improve.
Conscious Competence - After countless hours of study you become skilled/have had enough experience to gain skill. You need to think about what you've learned...otherwise you return to being incompetent.
Unconscious Competence - At this level you've learned something so well that it is now totally automatic and requires no thinking. In poker this could be anything from folding 23o utg to understanding why someone is exploitable when they open x amount of hands and cbet y board with z frequency. In the book he refers to this as "The Holy Grail of Learning".

The point of this is that in order to reach a higher level of thought you need to first establish the thought process over hours and hours of study and practice, only then does it become second nature. When it becomes second nature you can focus you energy on other intricacies of whatever it is you are doing. In poker this might be fake tells, reading other people when not in a hand, developing strategies and adjustments to your ranges when not in a hand etc. etc. This imo, is what seperates a good player from a great player.

I could write an entire essay on the subject of poker and learning and how it is applicable to every aspect of you life, exercise, dating/relationships, investing, business etc etc but that would be beyond the scope of a poker forum discussion and take a lot of time. Instead I'l give you one of my favourite examples from the book "Blink" by Malcom Gladwell. In it, an experienced firefighter uses unconscious competence to save lives. I don't recall it word for word but here is a paraphrase:

"A researcher tells the story of a firefighter in Cleveland who answered a routine call with his men. It was in the back of a one-and-a-half story house in a residential neighborhood in the kitchen. The firefighters broke down the door, laid down their hose, and began dousing the fire with water. It should have abated, but it didn't. As the fire lieutenant recalls, he suddenly thought to himself, "There's something wrong here," and he immediately ordered his men out. Moments after they fled, the floor they had been standing on collapsed. The fire had been in the basement, not the kitchen as it appeared. When asked how he knew to get out, the fireman thought it was ESP, which of course it wasn't. What is interesting to Gladwell is that the fireman could not immediately explain how he knew to get out. From what Gladwell calls "the locked box" in our brains, our fireman just "blinked" and made the right decision. In fact, if the fireman had deliberated on the facts he was seeing, he would have likely lost his life and the lives of his men.

It took well over two hours of questioning for the fire lieutenant to piece together how he knew to get out. (First, the fire didn't respond as it was supposed to; second, the fire was abnormally hot; third, it was quiet when it should have been noisier given the heat.)"

I like this example because it's applicable to poker in that it explains why great poker players can make bad poker videos (see itallics), and why old people always think and say stuff like "there's no substitute for experience".

Finally if you don't understand how you can actually study a poker hand for hours (i.e. what a poker hand is made up of in terms of maths, ranges etc) you are at the level of unconscious incompetence when it comes to deeply analysing a poker hand. Basically, listen to the guy in the video and work out how to study hand for yourself/what tools are out there to do so.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 12:53:18 AM by Patonius2000 » Logged
SuuPRlim
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« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2011, 01:04:10 AM »

doubt you'll read a better post than that on here.

 
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mondatoo
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2011, 01:05:40 AM »

doubt you'll read a better post than that on here.

 

Do I need to watch the video first or just enjoy the post ?
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pleno1
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2011, 09:52:48 AM »

The video is really good and it is not just talking about the hand specifically but he is checking for the future to see if this play will be profitable. Its quite a common spot you find yourself in (thin showdown hand on the river - whether to turn hand into bluff or simply bluffcatch or fold) so doing extensive analysis is undoubtedly going to be +ev.
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
SuuPRlim
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2011, 11:54:05 AM »

Just watched the video and it's very very good.

The last thing id be thinking watching it wold be "how the hell can anyone think of all this"
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Dubai
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2011, 12:13:29 PM »

Well he might as well have played his hand faceup in the hand. Seems massively overrated video, anyone can go away and write an essay and read it like a robot after a hand. Obviously good players naturally know ranges, combos, equitys- even if u think u wouldnt you will be suprised how often a good players instinct will be correct

And lol at villain folding overpairs 50%+ of the time or 6x a third of the time. Its easy to be dillusional and put in incorrect ranges to skew a decision and justify a marginally bad play and make it look marginally correct.
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Junior Senior
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2011, 12:50:17 PM »

I will watch again. I got the impression he made all this shit up after the event to rationalize his decisions in what were fairly standard spots.
I reckon he could actualy be full of shit and I wanna play him heads up for roooooollllllsss!
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Patonius2000
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2011, 06:06:22 PM »

Well he might as well have played his hand faceup in the hand.


Not really sure why his hand looks face up. You're saying he can't have 66,88,22,44,6x and always has 77/99/TT turned in to a bluff when he takes this line? Obviously that would be a silly thing to say.

Seems massively overrated video, anyone can go away and write an essay and read it like a robot after a hand.

'Anyone' could not analyse a poker hand in this much detail. Random 1/2 reg could go write an essay and read it out on video but it doesn't mean it would be good. You might not agree with some of the assumptions he makes in the maths but the process is correct and he articulates it well.

Obviously good players naturally know ranges, combos, equitys- even if u think u wouldnt you will be suprised how often a good players instinct will be correct

Experience is great but if you do this sort of work away from the tables those instincts will come much quicker.

And lol at villain folding overpairs 50%+ of the time or 6x a third of the time. Its easy to be dillusional and put in incorrect ranges to skew a decision and justify a marginally bad play and make it look marginally correct.

I think it's reasonable for villain to fold overpairs over 50% of the time in the 99 hand, but you think we're faceup somehow with a mid overpair that's bluffing when our range is uncapped and we have a load more nut combos than bluff combos.

Also, Dubai/Junior I don't get why you somehow think that the guy in this video is deluded and applying this analysis to hands to justify himself being correct. Other than misrepresenting his ranges vs other regs and making a pittance from whatever training site it is there is no incentive for a high stakes poker player to do this. I think you are just making up stories because you don't like maths.
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Dubai
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2011, 06:25:04 PM »

I don't like maths? Er ok...not gonna go into it but I don't like people using wrong ranges to justify, mathematically, suboptimal plays.

As for his range pre I think you are wrong. But definitely not going to discuss that
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pleno1
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2011, 06:48:14 PM »

sure is getting pittance!
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
SuuPRlim
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2011, 05:08:49 AM »

sure is getting pittance!

If I was this guy and beating 50/100nl then I'd want 10-20K$ to make a video, think  its actually pretty retarded to do it for any less.
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pleno1
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2011, 09:29:40 AM »

sure is getting pittance!

If I was this guy and beating 50/100nl then I'd want 10-20K$ to make a video, think  its actually pretty retarded to do it for any less.

sure does get close to that Tongue
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Worst playcalling I have ever seen. Bunch of  fucking jokers . Run the bloody ball. 18 rushes all game? You have to be kidding me. Fuck off lol
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